High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[Czech_pivo]

Bombardier Transportation (sold off to Alstom in 2021).... sold off for pennies on the dollar like the rest of our once robust manufacturing capabilities.

Metrolinx is a dumpster fire AFAIAC... couldn't run a piss up in a brewery. Crews are also low skill and poorly trained which contributes to the malaise. Takes them hours to do power moves that should take a skilled train crew minutes.

I think what the Ford Govt is doing with Ontario Northland and Amtrak corridor services are something we should be looking to emulate though. Deutsch Bahn was brought in to manage the operations of ONXpress, they complained the entire time because the conditions weren't comparable to Germany. "You guys just don't work like us!" .... yes the conditions are different.

It's apples and oranges.

The Euros also regularly overpromise and under-deliver in many sectors.

Metrolinx went from having crews that were 'real' railway folks (meaning CN/CP trained crews) to outsourcing it all to Bombardier and it went all downhill from there -

I've been riding the GO system since 2003, less since COVID, but between 2003-2020, pretty much every single day. The 'wet leaves on the track' and the other two examples that I gave have been around since 2003, they haven't gone away or changed in 23yrs. Doesn't matter which Provincial Government has been in power or which entity has been running the system.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Here's a hint. Why do governments build airports, roads and subways?

Grifting opportunities. Ideology. Election and re-election. Pressure from activists and lobbyists.

Some people might think I am being facetious. Considering how often governments resist spending money on improvements until the improvements are egregiously overdue, it's clear that they mostly aren't forward- and economically-focused, which are the reasons proponents would like to believe.

If a train can cut two hours' travel time compared to air, it's a good opportunity to actually price fares a little above airfares.

Major infrastructure projects are becoming increasingly expensive at year-over-year rates that seem to be exceeding all the growth rates of the things that drive government revenues. Better get ahead of the coming cliffs now. Things that can be run like a for-profit business, should be run like a for-profit business and become financial sources instead of sinks.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The mistake I see is we will hire a bunch of outsiders and let a bunch of Euros come over here and tell us how we should be doing things based on conditions that don't exist here.

Nah. There have never been any circular firing squads after major projects in which a bunch of foreigners excused themselves because they didn't really know Canada.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Metrolinx went from having crews that were 'real' railway folks (meaning CN/CP trained crews) to outsourcing it all to Bombardier and it went all downhill from there -

I've been riding the GO system since 2003, less since COVID, but between 2003-2020, pretty much every single day. The 'wet leaves on the track' and the other two examples that I gave have been around since 2003, they haven't gone away or changed in 23yrs. Doesn't matter which Provincial Government has been in power or which entity has been running the system.

My point exactly. The real $$$ is in Class 1 service here. GO and Metrolinx get all the Washouts that couldn't handle Class 1 service, crews and manglement (see what I did there). We have tons of expertise here but it's all tied up in freight because freight pays big $$$.

I am interested in developing some form of slick passenger rail service here but get some actual trainmen that know how to run a pressure cooker. Traffic velocity, on time scheduling and train speed are metrics that don't change.

 

[childs56]

It was one of the most sought after rail procurements in decades. What more do you think could have been done differently?

If one was into making railways (money) and you have the potential for one of the largest projected projects going forward (aka free government money) on the books you would be sought after by those who like to make money. With the talks for decades about high speed services not just in Upper/ Lower Canada but across the country. One would be a fool not to jump on the "Green transportation project" as some would call it the "money train"

I get that a lot of people are totally clueless about the project till recently. That doesn't excuse the projecting of ignorance as fact, when Google can so easily tell you this isn't VIA running the show.

Actually........ Changing a name of a company from Via HFR to ALTO does not change who is in charge or who is running the operation. It changes the color on the side of the building (most times) and puts a few different people in positions around a table.

Where does LNG Canada get the gobs of electricity it needs and what was done to provide that?

Depends, Some onsite gas turbines, some BC hydro and some Hydro from RIO Tinto.

No it isn't.

What does comfort have to do with anything?

Here's a hint. Why do governments build airports, roads and subways?

Because they are called critical infrastructure projects. Funny though how the government will fully fund a Railway but not fully fund a Refinery.

 

[brihard]

Bombardier Transportation (sold off to Alstom in 2021).... sold off for pennies on the dollar like the rest of our once robust manufacturing capabilities.

Metrolinx is a dumpster fire AFAIAC... couldn't run a piss up in a brewery. Crews are also low skill and poorly trained which contributes to the malaise. Takes them hours to do power moves that should take a skilled train crew minutes.

I think what the Ford Govt is doing with Ontario Northland and Amtrak corridor services are something we should be looking to emulate though. Deutsch Bahn was brought in to manage the operations of ONXpress, they complained the entire time because the conditions weren't comparable to Germany. "You guys just don't work like us!" .... yes the conditions are different.

It's apples and oranges.

The Euros also regularly overpromise and under-deliver in many sectors.

While Canada obviously has domestic expertise in operating freight railroads, do we still have domestic expertise that would let us take lead in the design and build of dedicated passenger HSR? Seems it’s been a while since Canada’s built something on the scale discussed, and a lot of our recedent domestic passenger rail infrastructure projects have left a fair bit to be desired, granted they aren’t at all in the same class. But the things we’re already sucking at seem easier.

 

[Altair]

Grifting opportunities. Ideology. Election and re-election. Pressure from activists and lobbyists.

Some people might think I am being facetious. Considering how often governments resist spending money on improvements until the improvements are egregiously overdue, it's clear that they mostly aren't forward- and economically-focused, which are the reasons proponents would like to believe.

If a train can cut two hours' travel time compared to air, it's a good opportunity to actually price fares a little above airfares.

No.

Trains don't have things like airport taxes or jet fuel costs. It's costs less to run HSR, the ticket prices are usually lower as a result. Zero reason to gouge people.

ALTO should be operationally profitable and that should be good enough.

Major infrastructure projects are becoming increasingly expensive at year-over-year rates that seem to be exceeding all the growth rates of the things that drive government revenues. Better get ahead of the coming cliffs now. Things that can be run like a for-profit business, should be run like a for-profit business and become financial sources instead of sinks.

As long as ALTO isn't saddled with the cost of building the system I don't see why they wouldn't be operationally profitable.

 

[Brad Sallows]

.

if I am not mistaken the power comes from the dam that was put in to power the aluminum smelters.

The question I understood to be about the new projects, for which the Site C dam was promised as a major energy provider. Costs fall on ratepayers and taxpayers, but apparently everyone is really coy about stating how much of the bill each will cover. Critics like to point to taxpayers burdens, but can't seem to provide even a rough dollar figure, so I suspect when they say "substantial" it really means "small".

It's good to mention the dam, though, as another example of what happens with big projects. Site C was a $16B project in the end, somewhere in the region of double what it was sold as. A $90B HSR project is likely to have a pretty eye-popping overrun. Best to keep the pain private rather than public or its going to eat into everything else governments have to do. An important thing to remember about HSR is that it's to replace something we already have, not give us something new.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The 'wet leaves on the track' and the other two examples that I gave have been around since 2003, they haven't gone away or changed in 23yrs.

Forget about wet leaves on tracks. Imagine the security vulnerability.

 

[childs56]

While Canada obviously has domestic expertise in operating freight railroads, do we still have domestic expertise that would let us take lead in the design and build of dedicated passenger HSR? Seems it’s been a while since Canada’s built something on the scale discussed, and a lot of our recedent domestic passenger rail infrastructure projects have left a fair bit to be desired, granted they aren’t at all in the same class. But the things we’re already sucking at seem easier.

I would have to ask who was consulting in those projects. I know a few had "experts" from over seas. When things did not go as planned they used the phrase the ground is different here then back home.

I wonder if it is the same or similar consulting agency who were trying to build "MOATs" aka canals around downtown cores in Western Canada to attract tourists. Who somehow proposed gondolas across river valleys again to attract tourists. Who ended up with lucrative consulting contracts to build and or overhaul pedestrian foot bridges in Western Canada.

 

[ytz]

We have all of the expertise we need right here to build a credible passenger railway service that provides value and is run the Canadian-way. The mistake I see is we will hire a bunch of outsiders and let a bunch of Euros come over here and tell us how we should be doing things based on conditions that don't exist here.

We aren't clueless, we are skeptical. There is a difference.

I am not clueless about rail operations. I'm a professional trainman, qualified Locomotive Engineer. I've railroaded in a number of different territories.

I am skeptical of anything the Govt touches with respect to rail, based on my experience dealing with them directly.

Complains about VIA. And then when outside talent is brought in, complains about that. Can't win.

VIA doesn't have the expertise to do something this big. And the freight cos have exactly zero experience building passenger rail, let alone HSR.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

5While Canada obviously has domestic expertise in operating freight railroads, do we still have domestic expertise that would let us take lead in the design and build of dedicated passenger HSR? Seems it’s been a while since Canada’s built something on the scale discussed, and a lot of our recedent domestic passenger rail infrastructure projects have left a fair bit to be desired, granted they aren’t at all in the same class. But the things we’re already sucking at seem easier.

I'm a firm believer that you just need the right people with the right personalities in charge and anything is possible.

Our Class 1 railroads are world class. They provided the model that is the industry standard.

Those exacting standards can also be applied to passenger service. We have a lot of employees that still have experience in passenger service. Most of my senior crews operated passenger trains up until fairly recently(when the service was fully absorbed by the Govt).

We have a lot of untapped talent in this Country.

 

[ytz]

Metrolinx (Go Transit) is in the process of getting ready to kick off electrifying its network. Who do you think their partners are for this project since there are zero Canadian companies with experience in electrifying a rail network? Alstom and Deutsche Bahn.

That contract was cancelled actually. And DB lost the bid for Alto to. Cadence is SNCF.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I'm a firm believer that you just need the right people with the right personalities in charge and anything is possible.

Our Class 1 railroads are world class. They provided the model that is the industry standard.

Those exacting standards can also be applied to passenger service. We have a lot of employees that still have experience in passenger service. Most of my senior crews operated passenger trains up until fairly recently(when the service was fully absorbed by the Govt).

We have a lot of untapped talent in this Country.

I agree that we have alot of untapped talent in this country.

 

[Altair]

Complains about VIA. And then when outside talent is brought in, complains about that. Can't win.

VIA doesn't have the expertise to do something this big. And the freight cos have exactly zero experience building passenger rail, let alone HSR.

I suspect if we gave freight companies the contract they would find a way to invent high speed freight instead of passenger rail.

 

[ytz]

Grifting opportunities. Ideology. Election and re-election. Pressure from activists and lobbyists.

Thanks for proving my point.

Canadians have a weird "Can't do" attitude. No matter what it is, there's always somebody ready with an excuse for why it can't be done or won't succeed.

 

[ytz]

if I am not mistaken the power comes from the dam

And who built the dam?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Grifting opportunities. Ideology. Election and re-election. Pressure from activists and lobbyists.

Some people might think I am being facetious. Considering how often governments resist spending money on improvements until the improvements are egregiously overdue, it's clear that they mostly aren't forward- and economically-focused, which are the reasons proponents would like to believe.

If a train can cut two hours' travel time compared to air, it's a good opportunity to actually price fares a little above airfares.

Major infrastructure projects are becoming increasingly expensive at year-over-year rates that seem to be exceeding all the growth rates of the things that drive government revenues. Better get ahead of the coming cliffs now. Things that can be run like a for-profit business, should be run like a for-profit business and become financial sources instead of sinks.

If a government run entity becomes successful and makes money, business will demand that government sells it off, so they can run it and make the money. Funny how the business types shy away from the government run entities that can't make money. If a government can run something decently and make some extra money, such as train/ferry/inspection service, etc then I don't mind it.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Complains about VIA. And then when outside talent is brought in, complains about that. Can't win.

VIA doesn't have the expertise to do something this big. And the freight cos have exactly zero experience building passenger rail, let alone HSR.

Sure pal! We ran the passenger rail here up until recently. We have all the expertise we need to run a profitable and efficient railroad. I'll defer to your obvious extensive expertise running and operating trains and networks of trains , you seem to have all the answers.

 

[ytz]

I suspect if we gave freight companies the contract they would find a way to invent high speed freight instead of passenger rail.

100%. And the Harper experience in Belleville proves it.

I think Humphrey just wants his cut.