High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[Altair]

I'm a firm believer that you just need the right people with the right personalities in charge and anything is possible.

Our Class 1 railroads are world class. They provided the model that is the industry standard.

Those exacting standards can also be applied to passenger service. We have a lot of employees that still have experience in passenger service. Most of my senior crews operated passenger trains up until fairly recently(when the service was fully absorbed by the Govt).

We have a lot of untapped talent in this Country.

We are spending 60-90b dollars on this.

I would rather give it to SMEs than a Canadian company with no experience in it just because they are Canadian.

Seeing the opposition we are already seeing, imagine a inexperienced Canadian corporation botching the job? It would never get anywhere close to completion.

Some of the best HSR systems are in France and Spain. We brought them in. Seems perfectly reasonable.

 

[Czech_pivo]

That contract was cancelled actually. And DB lost the bid for Alto to. Cadence is SNCF.

The intent to electrify the entire system has been scaled back and is now centered on primarily just the Lakeshore line, both West and East.

One of the main issues/constraints is Union Station itself. They made the decision 8-10yrs ago, when they were working in the 'remodeling' and expansion of Union Station to NOT alter/amend the existing 'train barn' roof or the train beds and it was called out then - 10ish yrs ago - that the height from the train bed to the ceiling would be too low to allow for electrification to occur......so they purposefully kneecapped themselves back then on any future enhancements.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

And who built the dam?

Likely government. Government often take on big projects with a long term investment outlook and no expectation of a quick profit. A good example of that is W.A.C. Bennett who was instrumental in creating much of the infrastructure that BC still depends on.

 

[Brad Sallows]

No.

Trains don't have things like airport taxes or jet fuel costs. It's costs less to run HSR, the ticket prices are usually lower as a result. Zero reason to gouge people.

The reason to "gouge" is to cover costs. HSR won't be competing with a parallel HSR; it'll be competing with air. The sum of cash price plus time saved just has to beat airfares.

Of course governments can (probably will) do the stupid thing and cave to pressure to keep costs low. Then you eventually get aging fleets and increasing frequencies of service interruption.

As long as ALTO isn't saddled with the cost of building the system I don't see why they wouldn't be operationally profitable.

Sure. List all the major public or semi-public transportation companies/authorities across the country which are consistently operationally profitable without any external revenue sources (eg taxes/levies on roads, fuels, property, etc).

 

[childs56]

While Canada obviously has domestic expertise in operating freight railroads, do we still have domestic expertise that would let us take lead in the design and build of dedicated passenger HSR? Seems it’s been a while since Canada’s built something on the scale discussed, and a lot of our recedent domestic passenger rail infrastructure projects have left a fair bit to be desired, granted they aren’t at all in the same class. But the things we’re already sucking at seem easier.

It is a great question. I know of more then a few Engineers who when in school studied highspeed rail services in Canada. Often they stated similar results. Operational cost prohibitive to provide a service for the population density. Cost prohibitive to build due to other infrastructure and land issues along with weather constraints.
I am sure we have the expertise to build a project of this magnitude domestically with our own Engineers/ Builders. But why would we, when we can attract (line the pockets of "new" friends and family's) new investors/ expertise in these and other up and coming projects?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I suspect if we gave freight companies the contract they would find a way to invent high speed freight instead of passenger rail.

We call those extended service runs. You only need half the crew-starts to run the same train. You shave 15 minutes off every second sub by cutting your crew changes in half .

There isn't really a need for freight to run much faster than 60-70mph. A 30,000 ton, 14,000ft train is an impressive sight and a marvel of modern engineering.

 

[ytz]

We ran the passenger rail here up until recently.

Nah. You ran mostly commuter railroads. And squeezed in some medium haul passenger service and long distance tourist trains between freight trains.

You're actually the reason VIA sucks. Nice try at retcon.

If a government run entity becomes successful and makes money, business will demand that government sells it off, so they can run it and make the money. Funny how the business types shy away from the government run entities that can't make money. If a government can run something decently and make some extra money, such as train/ferry/inspection service, etc then I don't mind it.

Heck, all our pension funds love buying infrastructure built by governments. So does every large sovereign wealth fund. Nobody wants the risk to build. But once it is done. Boy do they line up.

 

[ytz]

We are spending 60-90b dollars on this.

I would rather give it to SMEs than a Canadian company with no experience in it just because they are Canadian.

Seeing the opposition we are already seeing, imagine a inexperienced Canadian corporation botching the job? It would never get anywhere close to completion.

Some of the best HSR systems are in France and Spain. We brought them in. Seems perfectly reasonable.

It was an open bid. Humphrey should ask his employer why they didn't put in a bid if they are supposedly so well positioned for it. I don't think CN or CP even joined any of the consortiums. But Air Canada joined Cadence and is on the winning team.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If a government run entity becomes successful and makes money, business will demand that government sells it off, so they can run it and make the money. Funny how the business types shy away from the government run entities that can't make money. If a government can run something decently and make some extra money, such as train/ferry/inspection service, etc then I don't mind it.

Been watching the news about BC Ferries the last few months?

A thing about entirely private entities is that without a government teat/backstop, they have to keep the service at acceptable levels in order to keep the revenue stream flowing. In practice that means they have to reinvest and upgrade before things start to fail.

Governments like to play games with the financials to satisfy voters: bridge tolls, insurance rates, and ferry rates are three stellar examples in BC.

 

[ytz]

Been watching the news about BC Ferries the last few months?

A thing about entirely private entities is that without a government teat/backstop, they have to keep the service at acceptable levels in order to keep the revenue stream flowing. In practice that means they have to reinvest and upgrade before things start to fail.

Governments like to play games with the financials to satisfy voters: bridge tolls, insurance rates, and ferry rates are three stellar examples in BC.

The privatization of British Rail would like to say hi.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Been watching the news about BC Ferries the last few months?

A thing about entirely private entities is that without a government teat/backstop, they have to keep the service at acceptable levels in order to keep the revenue stream flowing. In practice that means they have to reinvest and upgrade before things start to fail.

Governments like to play games with the financials to satisfy voters: bridge tolls, insurance rates, and ferry rates are three stellar examples in BC.

BC Ferries ran a pretty decent operation for a long time, then they were made into a quasi-business and that's when things were falling apart. Example, spending money on advertizing BCF, when the majority of the routes were already fully booked. They wasted money on frivolous stuff and cut corners on maintenance.

 

[Brad Sallows]

You're actually the reason VIA sucks. Nice try at retcon.

VIA sucks because air travel in Canada became accessible to the masses. Everything else is downstream from that.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The privatization of British Rail would like to say hi.

So would the privatization of various Canadian utilities despite the impediments legislated by governments. Select all the fuck-ups you want; there are many more successes.

 

[Altair]

The reason to "gouge" is to cover costs. HSR won't be competing with a parallel HSR; it'll be competing with air. The sum of cash price plus time saved just has to beat airfares.

Of course governments can (probably will) do the stupid thing and cave to pressure to keep costs low. Then you eventually get aging fleets and increasing frequencies of service interruption.

Give the system a few years of running and see what the margins are. Adjust accordingly.

Sure. List all the major public or semi-public transportation companies/authorities across the country which are consistently operationally profitable without any external revenue sources (eg taxes/levies on roads, fuels, property, etc).

That's just dumb. It's apples to oranges.

Most public transport is to facilitate the greatest movement of people from point to point to reduce congestion and give low income people a way to traverse without needing to spend money on a car.

ALTO is being built to get people from high density population centers to other high density population centers(not like via making stops at small population centers), using their own rail (not like via needing to pay CN only to be be sidelined by every freight train that needs to pass) and electric lines (not like via needing to pay high fuel costs)

Other public transportation options either are not built for profitability or in cases like via, are set up to fail.

ALTO is being set up to have the best chance of success, despite the best efforts of some to get it to stop in every one road town along the way.

 

[Brad Sallows]

BC Ferries ran a pretty decent operation for a long time, then they were made into a quasi-business and that's when things were falling apart. Example, spending money on advertizing BCF, when the majority of the routes were already fully booked. They wasted money on frivolous stuff and cut corners on maintenance.

As you wrote, quasi-business. The government tried to have it both ways: a degree of separation but with the ability to reach in and dictate. That's not a privatization failure; that's a governmental failure.

 

[ytz]

ALTO is being set up to have the best chance of success, despite the best efforts of some to get it to stop in every one road town along the way.

The surest way to failure is to add more stops. 10 mins for a stop in Perth might add 10 riders and cost 50 in Toronto. This is exactly why I'm glad it's a private developer and not a fully government run project. Only way to maintain that discipline.

 

[Altair]

Nah. You ran mostly commuter railroads. And squeezed in some medium haul passenger service and long distance tourist trains between freight trains.

You're actually the reason VIA sucks. Nice try at retcon.



Heck, all our pension funds love buying infrastructure built by governments. So does every large sovereign wealth fund. Nobody wants the risk to build. But once it is done. Boy do they line up.

Private capital hates risk. But once something is proven profitable they are addicted to the chance to get their grubby hands on the profit.

I know that if ALTO is successful, it will face the same pressure that Air Canada did. And likely face the same results of big corporations nickle and diming the once functional company to a husk of its former self, living off the memory of the good times rather than any desire to maintain standards and good customer service.

But that's another thread all of its own...

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

It was an open bid. Humphrey should ask his employer why they didn't put in a bid if they are supposedly so well positioned for it. I don't think CN or CP even joined any of the consortiums. But Air Canada joined Cadence and is on the winning team.

Because there is no $$$ in it. I have zero interest in getting involved in any sort of Govt boondoggle. The Feds have a long history of not being able to manage a pissup in a brewery. As for the supposed supremacy of British/Fench/Spanish/German engineering... my extensive experience also using all their dogshit weapon systems we buy says otherwise:

An impressive display of French technology indeed!

 

[Brad Sallows]

ALTO is being set up to have the best chance of success, despite the best efforts of some to get it to stop in every one road town along the way.

A "best chance of success" that will peak at "should be operationally profitable and that should be good enough" is a laughably low bar. I suppose it has the advantage of greasing the skids for when the inevitable "sunk costs" entreaties start to flow from the project's enthusiasts.

HSR competes with air travel and should be expected to pay its own way. This is not just a reasonable expectation; it's a fair competition practice. We are not talking about a subsidized passenger service between two highly-subsidized municipal/regional airports in a backwater part of the country. We are talking about two premier Canadian destinations with population densities about as large as we can hope for.

 

[Altair]

The surest way to failure is to add more stops. 10 mins for a stop in Perth might add 10 riders and cost 50 in Toronto. This is exactly why I'm glad it's a private developer and not a fully government run project. Only way to maintain that discipline.

Yeah, I've been impressed by the no nonsense approach it's been taking.

They already caved once, agreeing to run this to Quebec city, this adding Laval, trois Rivières and Québec City to the route, probably the money sink of the system right there.

I guess they see the Montreal to Toronto route as profitable enough to offset that, but they cannot add any more inefficiencies to the system