High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[Altair]

No clear plan = More trashing activity...

Dan Albas: High speed rail is another Liberal legacy project without a plan​

$90 billion for a train most families will never ride and can’t afford

Conservatives believe Canada is a country ready to build again. For too long, especially in our largest cities, young Canadians have watched governments make big announcements while the cost of living rises, opportunities narrow and major projects stall. After more than a decade of Liberal promises, overspending and delays, Canadians deserve a new approach that delivers real results people can actually afford.

High‑speed rail is an exciting idea. Young Canadians travel abroad and wonder why Canada, a G7 country, still struggles to build so many different things. Conservatives agree: Canada should be building more, building smarter and building faster.

But Alto, announced in the final days of Justin Trudeau’s premiership, doesn’t reflect that kind of smart ambition. It looks more like a legacy project — another big promise without any clear plan to deliver. Conservatives have made our position clear, but doubts are being raised within the Liberal party too, with Liberal MP for the Bay of Quinte, Chris Malette, coming out in opposition to the project proposal.

It is surprising that Prime Minister Mark Carney doubled down on this megaproject without any public fiscal review, independent scrutiny or even a feasibility report. Creating a new state‑run high‑speed rail corporation to build a Toronto–Quebec City line in an already well‑serviced corridor, at a projected cost of at least $90 billion or more, is a serious undertaking.

Dan Albas: High speed rail is another Liberal legacy project without a plan

$90 billion for a train most families will never ride and can’t afford

nationalpost.com

I Don't think anyone has ever refered to VIA rail like this before.

 

[lenaitch]

The money allocated is 60-90b

I assume the 90b is for if they go with the more expensive options, tunnelling in Ottawa and Montreal.

My thoughts are if you're going to do this, do it right, no half measures.

Dropping people off a stones throw from Parliament, Chateau Laurier, Rideau center, byward market, and the Rogers center is way better than Tremblay road which is near...well, there's a baseball stadium. A small baseball stadium.

It could work with one of the speculated routes I have seen as going to Montreal down the Quebec side of the river. Many people assume that it will follow a 'railbanked' abandoned right-of-way in Ontario.

In Montreal, the current HSR ROW does not go to the central station, downtown, but rather on the North side of the mountain. They are talking about swinging South to the central station but that would require digging a new tunnel under the mountain. However, a station North of the mountain works anyway because it would colocate with one of the REM station that would connect you to downtown in less than ten minutes and the main airport at Dorval (I will never get myself to call it the P. E. T. airport) in less than fifteen.

And Altair, isn't the baseball stadium abandoned?

There is apparently a school of thought that HSR simply has to go 'downtown' to 'downtown'.

There is the old CP station that is currently serving as an LCBO. Maybe using that line would be better

I have seen discussions on that. It isn't 'downtown' and only connects with a single TTC subway line. It is anything but a hub. It would require relocating CPKC's sole east-west mainline. Getting into the urban areas of all of the cities is going to be a problem to be solved.

There has been some talk about a Toronto bypass for both CN and CPKC for years, long before HSR. GO covets the CPKC North Toronto sub for all sorts of reasons. Both railways, if they could even sit down together and discuss 'co-production', would want their profitability future-proofed meaning a corridor wide enough for a minimum of four tracks and probably more. Depending on location, both might need new yards (CPKC for certain). Carving a greenfield corridor through the suburban areas north of Toronto would be expensive and difficult, and the locals and municipalities would probably fight tooth and nail to not host high volume freight traffic of dangerous goods.

Many people don't realize that every single freight train that moves from western to eastern Canada has to pass through Toronto.

 

[Halifax Tar]

No clear plan = More trashing activity...

Dan Albas: High speed rail is another Liberal legacy project without a plan​

$90 billion for a train most families will never ride and can’t afford

Conservatives believe Canada is a country ready to build again. For too long, especially in our largest cities, young Canadians have watched governments make big announcements while the cost of living rises, opportunities narrow and major projects stall. After more than a decade of Liberal promises, overspending and delays, Canadians deserve a new approach that delivers real results people can actually afford.

High‑speed rail is an exciting idea. Young Canadians travel abroad and wonder why Canada, a G7 country, still struggles to build so many different things. Conservatives agree: Canada should be building more, building smarter and building faster.

But Alto, announced in the final days of Justin Trudeau’s premiership, doesn’t reflect that kind of smart ambition. It looks more like a legacy project — another big promise without any clear plan to deliver. Conservatives have made our position clear, but doubts are being raised within the Liberal party too, with Liberal MP for the Bay of Quinte, Chris Malette, coming out in opposition to the project proposal.

It is surprising that Prime Minister Mark Carney doubled down on this megaproject without any public fiscal review, independent scrutiny or even a feasibility report. Creating a new state‑run high‑speed rail corporation to build a Toronto–Quebec City line in an already well‑serviced corridor, at a projected cost of at least $90 billion or more, is a serious undertaking.

Dan Albas: High speed rail is another Liberal legacy project without a plan

$90 billion for a train most families will never ride and can’t afford

nationalpost.com

There is no plan to deliver, and they really hope they aren't expected too, with any luck they hope it will be another Gov who has to cancel their boondoggles and they can wail and lament about what could have been and probably blame conservatives for its failure.

Its all about the announcement and getting people excited. Create good vibes and you can get away with a lot.

 

[Altair]

It could work with one of the speculated routes I have seen as going to Montreal down the Quebec side of the river. Many people assume that it will follow a 'railbanked' abandoned right-of-way in Ontario.


There is apparently a school of thought that HSR simply has to go 'downtown' to 'downtown'.


I have seen discussions on that. It isn't 'downtown' and only connects with a single TTC subway line. It is anything but a hub. It would require relocating CPKC's sole east-west mainline. Getting into the urban areas of all of the cities is going to be a problem to be solved.

There has been some talk about a Toronto bypass for both CN and CPKC for years, long before HSR. GO covets the CPKC North Toronto sub for all sorts of reasons. Both railways, if they could even sit down together and discuss 'co-production', would want their profitability future-proofed meaning a corridor wide enough for a minimum of four tracks and probably more. Depending on location, both might need new yards (CPKC for certain). Carving a greenfield corridor through the suburban areas north of Toronto would be expensive and difficult, and the locals and municipalities would probably fight tooth and nail to not host high volume freight traffic of dangerous goods.

Many people don't realize that every single freight train that moves from western to eastern Canada has to pass through Toronto.

I don't think it has to.

But I do think it's best to learn from past failures.

Mirabel airport was too far away from Montreal and the transit to get to and fro was not there.

ALTO can only control where they put their stations, not the surrounding public transportation. And without getting a transportation hub that connects quickly and seamlessly to where people actually want to go, HSR will be a failure. So the easiest way around this, around provincial and municipal government across every stop is just to plop the station downtown. It's where most people want to go anyways, and usually has the best transportation hubs inherently.

Montreal will probably be fine either way, the REM allows for that seamless transition.

Toronto I don't know, but Ottawa will be poorly served by the current VIA rail station. Unless the city of Ottawa really steps up and improves the O-Train and bus service, it will be a headache to get from there to anywhere else. Union station will get most people right where most want to be anyways.

If I were ALTO, I would avoid dealing with the city of Ottawa and praying they sort out their nonsense and just plop people on Rideau Street.

 

[Czech_pivo]

It could work with one of the speculated routes I have seen as going to Montreal down the Quebec side of the river. Many people assume that it will follow a 'railbanked' abandoned right-of-way in Ontario.


There is apparently a school of thought that HSR simply has to go 'downtown' to 'downtown'.


I have seen discussions on that. It isn't 'downtown' and only connects with a single TTC subway line. It is anything but a hub. It would require relocating CPKC's sole east-west mainline. Getting into the urban areas of all of the cities is going to be a problem to be solved.

There has been some talk about a Toronto bypass for both CN and CPKC for years, long before HSR. GO covets the CPKC North Toronto sub for all sorts of reasons. Both railways, if they could even sit down together and discuss 'co-production', would want their profitability future-proofed meaning a corridor wide enough for a minimum of four tracks and probably more. Depending on location, both might need new yards (CPKC for certain). Carving a greenfield corridor through the suburban areas north of Toronto would be expensive and difficult, and the locals and municipalities would probably fight tooth and nail to not host high volume freight traffic of dangerous goods.

Many people don't realize that every single freight train that moves from western to eastern Canada has to pass through Toronto.

A new rail line in the area that you’re discussing would have to run straight through the ‘Greenbelt’ and good luck with that.

An option ‘could’ be to utilize the adjacent land along parts of the 407 corridor for a new freight only line - but that would require tunnelling along a significant portion of the 400-404 centre area.

 

[ytz]

Did ALTO decide between Union station and the VIA rail station yet?

Union station is right downtown in ottawa, close to the O-train and bus routes

I attended the consultations. Honestly, it seems like a sop. The amount of work involved to get it downtown is tremendous. And would have downstream impacts on travel times. The required station box was supposedly 400 metres long. That won't fit at the old station. And we're talking about something that encroaches on Pearkes. I think it's a real longshot based on their requirements. Meanwhile the current station practically looks like it's designed to accommodate this.

There is the old CP station that is currently serving as an LCBO. Maybe using that line would be better

Wasn't included in the study area. And Metrolinx keeps talking about GO 2.0 with a Midtown line that might use that station.

But also in Toronto and Montreal getting as close to the financial districts as possible seems to be priority. Summerhill means 20 min cab or 15 min subway ride.

In Montreal, the current HSR ROW does not go to the central station, downtown, but rather on the North side of the mountain. ....

The study area from Alto's interactive map:



I'm not from Montreal. But to my eyes that includes Gare Centrale. And the CEO did say that if they didn't go to Gare Centrale they would be close. Similar situation to Toronto.

There is no plan to deliver,

What would you consider a plan to deliver? Genuinely curious. Cause I don't see how something this big is built without doing the things they're doing. They have to consult. They have to assemble land. They have to do the environmental assessments. Etc. They are doing what they need to do to get shovels in the ground by 2029 (their target). This is the absolute furthest any passenger rail effort has gotten in nearly a century and the furthest an HSR effort has ever gotten in Canada. I don't think anything like this ever got to the point that design and engineering works were actually contracted.

 

[Halifax Tar]

What would you consider a plan to deliver? Genuinely curious. Cause I don't see how something this big is built without doing the things they're doing. They have to consult. They have to assemble land. They have to do the environmental assessments. Etc. They are doing what they need to do to get shovels in the ground by 2029 (their target).

A plan that's more than something that's been announced three times.

 

[ytz]

A plan that's more than something that's been announced three times.

I get that they announce it to much. I agree. But I'm not sure the politicians doing stuff means the bureaucrats aren't executing. The winning consortium has a multi-billion dollar design contract and are executing. Land assembly on the Ottawa-Montreal portion may start this Fall. That's going beyond mere announcements.

And yes, there will be a hundred announcements of every little milestone between now and when the first train runs. I'm pretty sure the architect picking up his pencil will get a press release. Not sure that means there's no plan. That's just the nature of politics. No different than like all the different announcements on one of our bases when there is major recapitalization.

By the way, your suggestion is funny because the other side is accusing them of a lack of transparency and not communicating enough. I actually think they shouldn't communicate anything they haven't set in stone.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I get that they announce it to much. I agree. But I'm not sure the politicians doing stuff means the bureaucrats aren't executing. The winning consortium has a multi-billion dollar design contract and are executing. Land assembly on the Ottawa-Montreal portion may start this Fall. That's going beyond mere announcements.

I'm glad you're hopeful.