High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[Czech_pivo]

Its the expropriation of land that bothers me. Just pay the owners their asking price if its so important to the Nation.

Its not always about price of their land.

I've spoken before about my parents house/land being expropriate by the city of Windsor, ON back in 1996. They paid my parents well above the value of the land, well above. For my father it was the fact that the house had been in the family for 60 odd years and it was where he was raised as a kid and was now his home where he in turn was raising his family. Every tree on the property had been planted by his parents 50-60yrs earlier, very shrub, flower bed, garden shed, garage, all of it, had been built by them, his parents, and he was very much emotionally connected to it all because his parents had already past. During the entire process my father never once said to them, here is my price, or, you're price is too low, it was always the same answer - no, this is part of who I am and all of my memories. Today, there is nothing left of any of it, all the trees were chopped down, all the flower beds gone, fruit trees, shrubs, its as though it never was there. The property was large of a city lot, 120ft by 160ft.

Its like that poor sod and his farm outside Trenton that fought tooth and nail to hold onto his family farm that had been in his family for roughly 200yrs when they talked about some new facility for JTF2. In the end, they took his land, didn't build anything on it and refused his offer to buy it all back. For shit like that, build around them, find a new route and after all that if a viable route/option can't be found, shower them it money - but know that in some cases, money still doesn't matter.

There's an Oak tree in Oakville that's called unofficially the 'Prince of Wales Oak'. Its an incredible old, beautiful White Oak (over 250yrs old) tree on Bronte Rd. There was talk about it having to be cut down 25yrs ago because the Town of Oakville wanted to widen Bronte Rd and the oak had to go. The locals rallied around the tree, petitioned Prince Charles to get involved from the environmental side of things. The Town kept pushing and pushing that it couldn't save the tree because it sat right in the middle of the road expansion. Finally, after Prince's involvement, local fundraising, the 'geniuses' in the planning/road development department agreed to split the road around the tree, creating a medium/buffer so that the tree could continue to grow and remain there for hopefully another 200yr.

 

[Furniture]

No idea. But if you want my land and I didn't intend to sell it, I should get what I want for it. Or you can piss off.

That works until everyone wants $10 billion for their half acre.

It would mean that no national project could ever be built again. This is why unrestrained libertarianism doesn't stand up to the real world.

 

[ytz]

No idea. But if you want my land and I didn't intend to sell it, I should get what I want for it. Or you can piss off.

That works until everyone wants $10 billion for their half acre.

It would mean that no national project could ever be built again. This is why unrestrained libertarianism doesn't stand up to the real world.

Exactly.

Or we get something like this:

Motorway built around grandfather’s house after extraordinarily stubborn refusal

The two-storey home in China is rocked by constant vibrations and is surrounded by dust and noisy builders

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Halifax Tar]

That works until everyone wants $10 billion for their half acre.

It would mean that no national project could ever be built again. This is why unrestrained libertarianism doesn't stand up to the real world.

I think that's really easy to say when its not your property they want.

If you can't convince the citizens to give up their property for a fair price then I question the validity of it being a national project.

Its like that poor sod and his farm outside Trenton that fought tooth and nail to hold onto his family farm that had been in his family for roughly 200yrs when they talked about some new facility for JTF2. In the end, they took his land, didn't build anything on it and refused his offer to buy it all back. For shit like that, build around them, find a new route and after all that if a viable route/option can't be found, shower them it money - but know that in some cases, money still doesn't matter.

That's such a sad story. His family was granted that land for being loyal to the crown.

 

[ytz]

Its not always about price of their land.

I've spoken before about my parents house/land being expropriate by the city of Windsor, ON back in 1996. They paid my parents well above the value of the land, well above. For my father it was the fact that the house had been in the family for 60 odd years and it was where he was raised as a kid and was now his home where he in turn was raising his family. Every tree on the property had been planted by his parents 50-60yrs earlier, very shrub, flower bed, garden shed, garage, all of it, had been built by them, his parents, and he was very much emotionally connected to it all because his parents had already past. During the entire process my father never once said to them, here is my price, or, you're price is too low, it was always the same answer - no, this is part of who I am and all of my memories. Today, there is nothing left of any of it, all the trees were chopped down, all the flower beds gone, fruit trees, shrubs, its as though it never was there. The property was large of a city lot, 120ft by 160ft.

Its like that poor sod and his farm outside Trenton that fought tooth and nail to hold onto his family farm that had been in his family for roughly 200yrs when they talked about some new facility for JTF2. In the end, they took his land, didn't build anything on it and refused his offer to buy it all back. For shit like that, build around them, find a new route and after all that if a viable route/option can't be found, shower them it money - but know that in some cases, money still doesn't matter.

There's different types of opposition. I've read articles where some people are attached. But most of the opposition seems to fall somewhere between concerns about road ties getting cut (rational), their land simply being confiscated (irrational) and simply being opposed to their idyllic lifestyle being interrupted by trains running at 300 kph through their area (emotional but not irrational). Reminds me a lot of the rural opposition to wind turbines. People who are all about land rights who suddenly became very concerned about what other people were doing with their land mostly because of aesthetics.

 

[ytz]

If you can't convince the citizens to give up their property for a fair price then I question the validity of it being a national project.

Maybe. But I think there's very few people who are also so motivated by patriotism that they wouldn't simply abuse such a rule to demand significant overpayment.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There's different types of opposition. I've read articles where some people are attached. But most of the opposition seems to fall somewhere between concerns about road ties getting cut (rational), their land simply being confiscated (irrational) and simply being opposed to their idyllic lifestyle being interrupted by trains running at 300 kph through their area (emotional but not irrational). Reminds me a lot of the rural opposition to wind turbines. People who are all about land rights who suddenly became very concerned about what other people were doing with their land mostly because of aesthetics.

Its comments like that where you lose credibility in your argument with me.

You can make your argument without being a dick to your opposition for no reason. You're smarter than that, and we agree else where. But for some reason your posts in this thread verge and being just mean.

Don't lose me as an ally.

I suggest you suck back and reload for while here.

Maybe. But I think there's very few people who are also so motivated by patriotism that they wouldn't simply abuse such a rule to demand significant overpayment.

Canada does have that problem. I wonder why that is ?

 

[Jarnhamar]

This government turns a blind eye to <67,000% cost increases with projects.

The estimated HSR $60b - $90b price tag is ultimately disingenuous.

 

[ytz]

Its comments like that where you lose credibility in your argument with me.

You can make your argument without being a dick to your opposition for no reason. You're smarter than that, and we agree else where. But for some reason your posts in this thread verge and being just mean.

Don't lose me as an ally.

I suggest you suck back and reload for while here.

I honestly apologize. I didn't mean that as a jab at you or anyone else. Sincerely. I was thinking about the opposition to wind turbine projects here in Ontario a decade ago. And in the context of what I read from those opposed to Alto who literally say they don't want 300 kph trains "running through their backyards".

I don't think you live in Ontario. So I am not understanding why you even took this offensively.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I honestly apologize. I didn't mean that as a jab at you or anyone else. Sincerely. I was thinking about the opposition to wind turbine projects here in Ontario a decade ago. And in the context of what I read from those opposed to Alto who literally say they don't want 300 kph trains "running through their backyards".

Empathy.

I can empathize with this. And this project will probably run through or close family lands and hunting grounds.

I am also now a rural land owner. I didn't buy that rural land because I want to hear trains run by at 300 kph.

 

[ytz]

Empathy.

I can empathize with this. And this project will probably run through or close family lands and hunting grounds.

I am also now a rural land owner. I didn't buy that rural land because I want to hear trains run by at 300 kph.

Fair. And I don't think that's actually wrong. That's why I suggested it is "emotional but not irrational". Unlike say the wild conspiracy theories that the government is just coming for their land with no compensation (which I count as irrational).

I honestly don't know what the equitable solution is that balances public interest if the argument is that nothing should be built anywhere until every stakeholder is satisfied. Basically the Trudeau approach. And I am not sure most of the country is happy with that.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Fair. And I don't think that's actually wrong. That's why I suggested it is "emotional but not irrational". Unlike say the wild conspiracy theories that the government is just coming for their land with no compensation (which I count as irrational).

I honestly don't know what the equitable solution is that balances public interest if the argument is that nothing should be built anywhere until everywhere stakeholder is satisfied. Basically the Trudeau approach. And I am not sure most of the country is happy with that.

Unless my property is already up for sale, pay me what I want or go around.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Unless my property is already up for sale, pay me what I want or go around.

And times this, rational and legal, position by a few thousand and you can see the stakeholder engagement challenges ahead for a HSR project.

 

[Halifax Tar]

And times this, rational and legal, position by a few thousand and you can see the stakeholder engagement challenges ahead for a HSR project.

Unless they come in with big money bags I expect this to bogged down for a long time in courts.

 

[captloadie]

Unless my property is already up for sale, pay me what I want or go around.

HT - Not directed at you, but wanted to quote your sentiment.

Take this argument and apply it to First Nation demands vs. pipelines, or expansion of military training areas, and do we all agree the same should apply?

 

[Halifax Tar]

HT - Not directed at you, but wanted to quote your sentiment.

Take this argument and apply it to First Nation demands vs. pipelines, or expansion of military training areas, and do we all agree the same should apply?

10000% every day and twice on Sunday.

 

[Furniture]

I think that's really easy to say when its not your property they want.

If you can't convince the citizens to give up their property for a fair price then I question the validity of it being a national project.

I understand where you're coming from, and if it was my land I'd be a bit upset, but I also the the other side of it. When the government takes land they tend to pay over market value for the land, so its of not getting fair value.

We wouldn't have a lot of our current CAF training areas if the government couldn't appropriate land. We wouldn't have our modern highways systems either... Both are useful, and an in the overall public interest to have, even if it was inconvenient for the few who had their land appropriated.

Even in America, various levels of government can appropriate land for large public projects, so it's not a case of evil commie Canada stealing from people.

 

[daftandbarmy]

HT - Not directed at you, but wanted to quote your sentiment.

Take this argument and apply it to First Nation demands vs. pipelines, or expansion of military training areas, and do we all agree the same should apply?

Any business that operates on the land base like natural resources, big infrastructure, etc has to do a range of complex and expensive stakeholder engagement and first nations (and other legally required) consultation activities.

This can take decades. And sometimes it doesn't work out, as we can see in BC right now with pipelines and other development oriented efforts.

 

[Czech_pivo]

And times this, rational and legal, position by a few thousand and you can see the stakeholder engagement challenges ahead for a HSR project.

Any sense how much or how little Crown land is available for the HSR to use and reduce costs/time associated with expropriation?

 

[ytz]

Even in America, various levels of government can appropriate land for large public projects, so it's not a case of evil commie Canada stealing from people.

It's actually worse over there. They can expropriate to facilitate developments for private interests with a mere fig leaf of public interest. "This creates jobs."