High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[Brad Sallows]

I mean much like our tele coms I also think we should break the control our big company's have and flood our markets with competition, not from China.

What is it that is going to be achieved?

I suppose foreign competitors could buy the wires, or entire legacy corporations. Data security becomes harder to achieve, though, irrespective of whether the nuts-and-bolts storage facilities are still entirely in Canada. (Ownership has access privileges; such a system will "leak".) And there's still basically a "Big 3", unless two or more foreign competitors carve up one of the "Bigs". Maybe subscribers don't lose, but of course the profits go overseas along with the ownership; ordinarily the latter prospect has all sorts of people screaming, sometimes for well-founded reasons.

I suppose foreign competitors could build their own wires. That would all have to be paid for, almost entirely by Canadian subscribers unless the foreigners think they can con their own domestic subscribers into subsidizing Canadians' internet habits. Upward pressure on rates does not solve the pricing "problem" most people think exists. Subscribers lose.

I suppose foreign competitors could just pay to use the ILECs' infrastructure (most likely CoA if foreign acquisition isn't permitted). If regulators don't get the rates exactly right, they could end up effectively subsidizing competitors to move in on the lucrative markets (and they will get to pick their markets) at the wire owners' expense. Wire owners would have no incentive (and less capital) to roll out each succeeding innovation. "You new guys want it; you build it. We're just going to eke out what the CRTC lets us from what we already have." Subscribers lose.

Canada has 3 dominant carriers. The US has 3 dominant carriers. That suggests we have enough dominant carriers.

The publicly available financial information speaks for itself. Whatever profiteering conspiracies people have concocted in their heads, the evidence of egregiously overcharged profits is not showing up in bottom lines.

 

[Halifax Tar]

What is it that is going to be achieved?

Cheaper rates for consumers.

 

[ytz]

The publicly available financial information speaks for itself. Whatever profiteering conspiracies people have concocted in their heads, the evidence of egregiously overcharged profits is not showing up in bottom lines.

I agree. Some of the highest average per user (ARPU) in the developed world.

The “Big Three” (Bell, Rogers, Telus) control 80-90% of the market2, facing little pressure to lower prices. Canada’s own Competition Bureau calls the Canadian wireless industry “highly concentrated, very profitable and extremely difficult to enter” – a clear sign of monopoly power at play3.

In 2024 their average revenue per user (ARPU) was $67.41 for wireless4. This same figure is just CAD$28.31 in the UK5 and CAD$22.05 across Europe6.

Source: Affordable Mobile Everywhere in Canada – For Good

And not like those high bills are giving value for money either. We rank 45th in the world for mobile internet speeds.

Canada's Mobile and Broadband Internet Speeds - Speedtest Global Index

Canada ranked 45th in the world for mobile speeds and 16th for fixed broadband speeds during March 2026.

www.speedtest.net

That lack of value does translate into profits. I'll concede that. Bell and Rogers are some of the highest ranked telcos on operating margin in the world.

Top telecommunication companies by operating margin

companiesmarketcap.com

For consumers? Canada's telecom sector is delivering yesterday's speeds at tomorrow's prices.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Cheaper rates for consumers.

Sure. See the part about reinvestment in new tech.

I couldn't easily find anything about the original projected cost of the fibreoptic rollout when it started in 2013 or so. My recollection is an amount that was roughly half of the company's annual gross revenue at the time, for just the first phase.

Here is an AI assisted answer I got today:

"TELUS has invested over $175 billion in infrastructure since 2000, with significant investments in fiber optic upgrades starting around 2013. Specific project costs for individual upgrades may vary, but the overall commitment reflects a long-term strategy to enhance broadband access across Canada."

At some point almost anyone living in a TELUS legacy neighbourhood must have noticed when their neighbourhood was rewired (FTTH, fibre to the home). AFAIK, it's still in progress. Try to imagine the cost of the crews and equipment if a homeowner were paying for it.

Everyone in a TELUS-served neighbourhood who subscribes to something coming in via landline benefits, irrespective of who their actual contract provider is.

Then of course there is the desire of governments to extend service to all the remote parts of Canada that could never possibly pay for themselves. The companies get grants, but those grants can't protect the companies from future costs if revenues on those segments aren't enough to break even. To the extent that pushes up rates for other subscribers (ie. subsidization occurs), that's the fault of governments, not telcos.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sure. See the part about reinvestment in new tech.

I couldn't easily find anything about the original projected cost of the fibreoptic rollout when it started in 2013 or so. My recollection is an amount that was roughly half of the company's annual gross revenue at the time, for just the first phase.

Here is an AI assisted answer I got today:

"TELUS has invested over $175 billion in infrastructure since 2000, with significant investments in fiber optic upgrades starting around 2013. Specific project costs for individual upgrades may vary, but the overall commitment reflects a long-term strategy to enhance broadband access across Canada."

At some point almost anyone living in a TELUS legacy neighbourhood must have noticed when their neighbourhood was rewired (FTTH, fibre to the home). AFAIK, it's still in progress. Try to imagine the cost of the crews and equipment if a homeowner were paying for it.

Everyone in a TELUS-served neighbourhood who subscribes to something coming in via landline benefits, irrespective of who their actual contract provider is.

Then of course there is the desire of governments to extend service to all the remote parts of Canada that could never possibly pay for themselves. The companies get grants, but those grants can't protect the companies from future costs if revenues on those segments aren't enough to break even. To the extent that pushes up rates for other subscribers (ie. subsidization occurs), that's the fault of governments, not telcos.

You know how I know it would be better for consumers ? The existing companies don't want it and will fight to resist it.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I agree. Some of the highest average per user (ARPU) in the developed world.

ARPU isn't net profit, and isn't even net anything. What you wrote has nothing to do with my point.

And not like those high bills are giving value for money either. We rank 45th in the world for mobile internet speeds.

Here are some measures by which Canada seems to do a little better.

Speedtest tries to measure best performance. Opensignal tries to measure typical performance. People who want to compare performance should favour the latter.

What can we learn? That there are data one can cherry pick to support any set of priors, and different data mean different things. Across enough years, rankings move up and down.

For consumers? Canada's telecom sector is delivering yesterday's speeds at tomorrow's prices.

Not all factors are controlled by the corporations. See here.

I note that often smaller, densely populated countries tend to rank higher by many measurements, for some reason.

 

[Brad Sallows]

You know how I know it would be better for consumers ? The existing companies don't want it and will fight to resist it.

Well, then there are a couple of solutions.

Foreign corporations, which are motivated by a desire to improve life for Canadians and will be climbing over each other to make things better for Canadians at whatever cost to their bottom lines.

Governments, who will provide the service levels we've come to expect from typical government agencies and be as eager to spend money on upgrades as they are with respect to things like roads and bridges.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Should you then pay property taxes based on your declared value?

No, but they'd pay capital gains on any land that isn't the whole of the homestead.

 

[Brad Sallows]

You know how I know it would be better for consumers ? The existing companies don't want it and will fight to resist it.

I suppose it can't be stressed enough: the lack of foreign competition is because the government wants it that way. For some reason(s) the government wants Canadian corporations to hold and operate the assets of Canadian telecommunications infrastructure. It isn't as if the government is shy about sticking it to the Big 3 (eg. spectrum auctions) when it wants to.

 

[FJAG]

Unless my property is already up for sale, pay me what I want or go around.

Expropriation laws are long standing and we’ll developed. Fair Market value plays a big role in the process.

As an aside and FYI - TGV Lyon to Paris - 400 kms, 2 hours flat. Good club car. Very comfortable. No bag screening. Multiple trains throughout the day. Vastly superior to Via.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Expropriation laws are long standing and we’ll developed. Fair Market value plays a big role in the process.

As an aside and FYI - TGV Lyon to Paris - 400 kms, 2 hours flat. Good club car. Very comfortable. No bag screening. Multiple trains throughout the day. Vastly superior to Via.

I hope your property is never up for expropriation.

 

[QV]

Well, then there are a couple of solutions.

Foreign corporations, which are motivated by a desire to improve life for Canadians and will be climbing over each other to make things better for Canadians at whatever cost to their bottom lines.

Governments, who will provide the service levels we've come to expect from typical government agencies and be as eager to spend money on upgrades as they are with respect to things like roads and bridges.

*sarcasm

In case it's missed

 

[Jarnhamar]

the government is just coming for their land with no compensation (which I count as irrational).

Yeah, you'd have to be crazy to accuse the government of planning to take something from citizens without compensation.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yeah, you'd have to be crazy to accuse the government of planning to take something from citizens without compensation.

You forgot to sarcasm that lol

 

[lenaitch]

They have said their goal is maximum use of existing rail corridors, hydro corridors and trails. But it's obviously impossible to do 100%.

There's a hydro corridor that runs from near the GTA till north of Ottawa. I wonder why they didn't pick that one.

A lot of transmission corridors are easements as opposed to actual title ownership. As well, power lines care less about grades, bodies of water, road crossings, etc. than an a high speed rail would. I also have to believe there would be technical issues running the electric lines for train power in close proximity to the transmission circuits.

 

[brihard]

A lot of transmission corridors are easements as opposed to actual title ownership. As well, power lines care less about grades, bodies of water, road crossings, etc. than an a high speed rail would. I also have to believe there would be technical issues running the electric lines for train power in close proximity to the transmission circuits.

Provincial transmission line falls in a storm onto the HSR overhead catenaries; suddenly the Peterborough-Ottawa run find themselves going 1,400kph.

 

[YZT580]

*sarcasm

In case it's missed

I appreciate the hint

 

[YZT580]

Expropriation laws are long standing and we’ll developed. Fair Market value plays a big role in the process.

As an aside and FYI - TGV Lyon to Paris - 400 kms, 2 hours flat. Good club car. Very comfortable. No bag screening. Multiple trains throughout the day. Vastly superior to Via.

The Turbo could have done the same if it had ever had the right of way to do so and that was what 30 years ago. I don't think anyone is arguing that we couldn't use an improved i.e. dedicated ROW train system. What most people are objecting to is the exclusiveness of the service. The GTA has a population of roughly 6 million according to Google. Ontario has a population of 16 million. They are being cut-off from any kind of service improvements by a 90 billion dollar potential Mirabel. Because with that kind of money being poured into a single project you can bet your pension that there will be limited if any money spent on improving VIA. So 10 million pay so that 6 million can access an exclusive service. The same dollar value or probably a lot less would facilitate 10 million at the cost of a 30 to 45 minute longer ride.