High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[ytz]

And no matter how much money they pump into the transit system there is unworldly traffic day and night.

Cities have traffic. Show me a city without traffic and I'll show you a dying town.

Because folks want their cars when they go anywhere but downtown Montreal and Toronto. Put the money into road systems so it benefits lots of folks

Just one more lane bro......

Ever hear of the Katy Freeway in Houston? 26 lanes. Still has traffic jams. And I'm sure Texans aren't famous for dense cities with high transit usage.

You could pave over half the 416. You'll never solve traffic. That's how induced demand works. It's why Doug Ford now wants a $100B tunnel so that you can sit in traffic underground. He can't solve traffic above ground and has given up.

Let me introduce you to the Downs-Thomson Paradox. Basically, traffic during congestion only moves as fast as transit does. They equalize over time. And that's because when the average rational commuter steps out of their house, they'll choose the fastest method to get to their destination. The roads then fill up until driving and transit take the same amount of time. If you build one more lane, the faster road will simply fill right up.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Commuter studies to argue for a train from Toronto to Montreal?

Reaching hard now....

 

[Halifax Tar]

Cities have traffic. Show me a city without traffic and I'll show you a dying town.

I agree. We either have to make peace with that or embrace public transit en masse.

Nothing the Gov can do will solve this short of some dictatorial control of ownership and usage of private vehicles.

There is a reason I am at my desk at 0600hr every day. I adjusted my life to get around traffic and parking.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/halifax-ranks-third-in-canada-for-traffic-congestion-9.7053495

 

[Haggis]

There is a reason I am at my desk at 0600hr every day. I adjusted my life to get around traffic and parking.

Same here. When I worked at the Montreal Mail Centre I was in at 0545 and out by 1400 just to beat the infamous delays on the Ile aux Tourte Bridge out of the west island to Vaudreuil-Dorion.

 

[YZT580]

I think you've brought this up before.

Is your argument we've done it before to other so oh well ? I will tell you my family posting about this all the same generation as me (X) with no lived experience of the opening of the St Lawrence seaway. If you are trying to imposed some sort of tit for tat or generational revenge for the SLSW you're missing there too.

no Halifax, what he is saying that since we did it to (your) great grandfather it is quite ok to do it to your sons as well. The people arguing for HS are the same people on this site who were advocating virtual meetings which ironically would eliminate a lot of the necessity for getting to meetings in the cities served. So who does that leave: the common folk and tourists who don't care about saving 1 hour as much as saving hundreds of dollars in taxes and who don't mind looking out the windows and seeing country passing by rather than a blur. For those who like to reminisce, the Bistro used to be SRO for the whole 5 hours Montreal to Toronto. The whole idea was to make the travel as much a part of the journey as the destination. But that was before VIA.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I agree. We either have to make peace with that or embrace public transit en masse.

Nothing the Gov can do will solve this short of some dictatorial control of ownership and usage of private vehicles.

There is a reason I am at my desk at 0600hr every day. I adjusted my life to get around traffic and parking.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/halifax-ranks-third-in-canada-for-traffic-congestion-9.7053495

There's always the 'congestion charge' like they use for downtown London...

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge

 

[Halifax Tar]

There's always the 'congestion charge' like they use for downtown London...

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/congestion-charge

That's the Canadian way! When it doubt more taxes and fees!

 

[ytz]

Commuter studies to argue for a train from Toronto to Montreal?

Reaching hard now....

You're the one who brought up traffic in Toronto and Montreal.

 

[lenaitch]

I think you've brought this up before.

Is your argument we've done it before to other so oh well ? I will tell you my family posting about this all the same generation as me (X) with no lived experience of the opening of the St Lawrence seaway. If you are trying to imposed some sort of tit for tat or generational revenge for the SLSW you're missing there too.

Quite possibly. With my memory these days it's hard to recall what I posted this morning.

The only point I was trying to make was that any public work that requires land that the government (or government-backed consortium) doesn't already own is inevitably going to require an 'eminent domain' type acquisition unless we want it to be reduced to a series of willing participant transactions or accept that projects simply won't be done.

I get it; expropriation sucks if you are on the receiving end, but setting aside if HSR is a good idea or not, how else are large-scale undertakings that are allegedly in the public interest expected to proceed?

Right now, the CAF is getting a lot of push-back in the Simcoe County area because of its land requirements for the proposed OTH radar. Accepting the technical requirements that the site has to be situated there, does the government simply shrug and walk away muttering (and telling its NORAD partner) 'I guess we don't need modern radar'? Even if they could shift it a bit, I doubt there is a lot of land in southern Ontario, particular a large, contiguous plot, that isn't owned by somebody.

 

[FSTO]

People saw the area of study and lost their minds. When all is said and done it'll be a strip 60 meters wide and there'll be plenty consultation and accommodation.

Alto tripped up by not making this plain in there initial presentations.

 

[YZT580]

People saw the area of study and lost their minds. When all is said and done it'll be a strip 60 meters wide and there'll be plenty consultation and accommodation.

Alto tripped up by not making this plain in there initial presentations.

is that entirely true though? Consider that Alto wants 60 meters starting 20 meters beyond the barn. The family is out of business as it eliminates grandpa's entire farm from production. Farms are side by side so there will be no adjacent land that could be attached to the original homestead. The farms on the next grid road over get the opportunity to expand I suppose and purchase the 50 acres from their previous neighbour but the downside is he can no longer visit with his neighbour or help with haying as it will be a 20 or 30 mile drive around to get there. Ask the farmers between Kitchener and London (the area I am familiar with) about the disruptions caused by the 401 when it was put in. They are significant and no amount of consultaion, accommodation or good will can solve it.

 

[ytz]

People saw the area of study and lost their minds. When all is said and done it'll be a strip 60 meters wide and there'll be plenty consultation and accommodation.

Alto tripped up by not making this plain in there initial presentations.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. I attended their own houses. They wanted to survey the 10 km wide corridor to give them the ability to avoid expropriation or difficult local obstacles. Etc. But if they announced an exact route, they would have a fight for changes after. But they clearly have a detailed route in mind. How quickly they announced their list of sites for Ottawa-Montreal tells me they are further along than they let on.

is that entirely true though? Consider that Alto wants 60 meters starting 20 meters beyond the barn. The family is out of business as it eliminates grandpa's entire farm from production.

Alto has pledged that there will be compensation for these kinds of situations. Not just land value.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/how-alto-plans-to-buy-out-property-owners-for-its-high-speed-rail-plans-9.7184084

Our Property Acquisition Process

Learn how Alto’s property acquisition process works, from identifying properties to direct engagement, negotiations, and fair, transparent agreements.

www.altotrain.ca

By the way, are you just holding this standard for rail? Or do you expect people to say roll over for pipelines? What about the thousand or so properties that were expropriated for the 407 extension? I'm going to guess they didn't get anywhere close to the kind of compensation that Alto is pledging.

 

[YZT580]

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. I attended their own houses. They wanted to survey the 10 km wide corridor to give them the ability to avoid expropriation or difficult local obstacles. Etc. But if they announced an exact route, they would have a fight for changes after. But they clearly have a detailed route in mind. How quickly they announced their list of sites for Ottawa-Montreal tells me they are further along than they let on.



Alto has pledged that there will be compensation for these kinds of situations. Not just land value.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/how-alto-plans-to-buy-out-property-owners-for-its-high-speed-rail-plans-9.7184084

Our Property Acquisition Process

Learn how Alto’s property acquisition process works, from identifying properties to direct engagement, negotiations, and fair, transparent agreements.

www.altotrain.ca

By the way, are you just holding this standard for rail? Or do you expect people to say roll over for pipelines? What about the thousand or so properties that were expropriated for the 407 extension? I'm going to guess they didn't get anywhere close to the kind of compensation that Alto is pledging.

not at all. With the cost of highways for example I see no reason why they don't primarily follow the lot lines rather than hacking off a chunk of land. Whereas highways may be necessary it should be possible to reduce the upheaval more than they do.

 

[mariomike]

There's always the 'congestion charge' like they use for downtown London...

And NYC.

No fear of Queen's Park allowing it in Canada's largest city....

 

[YZT580]

And NYC.

No fear of Queen's Park allowing it in Canada's largest city....

View attachment 100314

with road rage being what it is these days there is no way that I would join that procession cutting in front of the cars.