High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[Czech_pivo]

Can't you tell from our posts: we were on the trains. It was the lack of priority that did them in, not the speed and many of the routes were cancelled because CN and CP were closing down the lines for freight as well, cutting back on all the low profit routes and divesting property to eliminate tons of municipal taxes. Places like Orangeville thought that the railways were cash cows and charged for every foot of right of way going through the municipalities. And there is lots of room to go back if they set the priority on building a proper rail centred network for short haul. Look at the work that has been done around Kitchener with more planned. They ripped up the rails decades ago but they are going back in.
Take every city and draw a 60 mile circle. Most of those folks employment or entertainment is focused on the centre of that circle and many of them spend an hour or more travelling each way 5 days a week. Many, like me, have given up on the city entirely because it isn't worth the hassle any more. There is your market and there is where you need the 90 billion dollars spent. Look at Paris, Brussels, Rome, Frankfurt and count the number of short line runs feeding into the city centre. Definitely we need to re-build the longer routes but HSR is simply wasting money for an elite few. There are what, 10 million people in the Golden Horseshoe. Ottawa airport had 3 million domestic passengers to all destinations in 2024. Assuming that even a third of them were in or out of Toronto that is maybe 500,000 total passengers each way, assuming again that they are both coming and going. So we are going to spend all that money to accommodate 5% of the population who may or may not decide on the train whilst 95% queue up on the 401 and other roads. It isn't logical especially since the people that you are saying will flock to the HSR have to get into downtown Toronto or out to the station in Ottawa to catch the train in the first place. You need to build the slower less flashy infrastructure first.

‘For a few elite’ - it’s the ‘elites’ that pay the majority of taxes in Canada. It’s the ‘elites’ who spend the most money on vacations. It’s the ‘elites’ who travel the most for business purposes. Sprinkle in a good dose of the middle class using HSR from time to time and some robust foreign travellers and that’s it, that’s all who will use the HSR.
Only 20% of the Canadian population pays 64.5% of all taxes in Canada. Another 40% pay no income tax at all. The remaining 40% pays the remaining 35.5%
The ‘slower’ infrastructure is already in place in the GTHA (Greater Toronto Hamilton Area) and beyond. Metrolinx has train/bus service daily out to Niagara Falls, Kitchener/Waterloo, Guelph, Barrie, Oshawa and all the way out to Peterbourgh. All of that will feed into the HSR.

 

[mariomike]

Rail is a lot less stressful than this ( Toronto ).

"Just one more lane, bro." Lol

Took an Argo the day day for the first time. Just tap your PRESTO and go.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Rail is a lot less stressful than this ( Toronto ).

"Just one more lane, bro." Lol

Took an Argo the day day for the first time. Just tap your PRESTO and go.
View attachment 100472

For a ‘time vs cost’ perspective, when I have to go from Burlington to Vaughan/North Toronto/ Pickering or points east, I will take the 407 98 times out of a 100. There is virtually zero stress and almost no truck traffic, it’s an utter joy to drive.
When I have to go into the office downtown I still take the Go train from Burlington. I always get a seat, almost all the time with no one seating besides me (a perk of taking the train at 6:20am) and a get a 30min nap on the way home. Well worth the 20$ round trip cost.
I’ve taken the UP Express (train from Pearson to Union Station in downtown Toronto) to Union and then got on a GO train out to Burlington. That’s a 15$ one way from Pearson to Union and another 10$ from Union to Burlington. About 1hr 35min or so if the trains are on time and such. Non-rush hour an Uber will cost me about 55$ home from Pearson and take about 40-45mins. So in terms of ‘time vs money’, Uber is better in non-rush hour terms.

 

[mariomike]

For a ‘time vs cost’ perspective, when I have to go from Burlington to Vaughan/North Toronto/ Pickering or points east, I will take the 407 98 times out of a 100. There is virtually zero stress and almost no truck traffic, it’s an utter joy to drive.
When I have to go into the office downtown I still take the Go train from Burlington. I always get a seat, almost all the time with no one seating besides me (a perk of taking the train at 6:20am) and a get a 30min nap on the way home. Well worth the 20$ round trip cost.
I’ve taken the UP Express (train from Pearson to Union Station in downtown Toronto) to Union and then got on a GO train out to Burlington. That’s a 15$ one way from Pearson to Union and another 10$ from Union to Burlington. About 1hr 35min or so if the trains are on time and such. Non-rush hour an Uber will cost me about 55$ home from Pearson and take about 40-45mins. So in terms of ‘time vs money’, Uber is better in non-rush hour terms.

Nice thing about GO trains and buses , and UPX ,is I don’t load my NDI 75 on my PRESTO .

So, I don’t tap on or off. Just carry it in my wallet in case a fare inspector asks.

 

[Haggis]

Had some nice weather last week, so I took the motorcycle to/from work. Riding the backroads home through rural west QC I saw there were a lot of roadside signs in opposition to HSR.

 

[JLB50]

Can't you tell from our posts: we were on the trains. It was the lack of priority that did them in, not the speed and many of the routes were cancelled because CN and CP were closing down the lines for freight as well, cutting back on all the low profit routes and divesting property to eliminate tons of municipal taxes. Places like Orangeville thought that the railways were cash cows and charged for every foot of right of way going through the municipalities. And there is lots of room to go back if they set the priority on building a proper rail centred network for short haul. Look at the work that has been done around Kitchener with more planned. They ripped up the rails decades ago but they are going back in.
Take every city and draw a 60 mile circle. Most of those folks employment or entertainment is focused on the centre of that circle and many of them spend an hour or more travelling each way 5 days a week. Many, like me, have given up on the city entirely because it isn't worth the hassle any more. There is your market and there is where you need the 90 billion dollars spent. Look at Paris, Brussels, Rome, Frankfurt and count the number of short line runs feeding into the city centre. Definitely we need to re-build the longer routes but HSR is simply wasting money for an elite few. There are what, 10 million people in the Golden Horseshoe. Ottawa airport had 3 million domestic passengers to all destinations in 2024. Assuming that even a third of them were in or out of Toronto that is maybe 500,000 total passengers each way, assuming again that they are both coming and going. So we are going to spend all that money to accommodate 5% of the population who may or may not decide on the train whilst 95% queue up on the 401 and other roads. It isn't logical especially since the people that you are saying will flock to the HSR have to get into downtown Toronto or out to the station in Ottawa to catch the train in the first place. You need to build the slower less flashy infrastructure first.

I am assuming that the HSR track could be used for Via Rail short runs as well. Or does the HSR run on a different track gauge?

 

[dapaterson]

I am assuming that the HSR track could be used for Via Rail short runs as well. Or does the HSR run on a different track gauge?

Slow trains on tracks slow down fast trains on tracks. It's the same problem VIA has on CN/CP tracks.

 

[ytz]

And Edmonton / Calgary

I'm definitely hoping that gets started on as soon as enough experience gets locked in on Alto.

 

[YZT580]

‘For a few elite’ - it’s the ‘elites’ that pay the majority of taxes in Canada. It’s the ‘elites’ who spend the most money on vacations. It’s the ‘elites’ who travel the most for business purposes. Sprinkle in a good dose of the middle class using HSR from time to time and some robust foreign travellers and that’s it, that’s all who will use the HSR.
Only 20% of the Canadian population pays 64.5% of all taxes in Canada. Another 40% pay no income tax at all. The remaining 40% pays the remaining 35.5%
The ‘slower’ infrastructure is already in place in the GTHA (Greater Toronto Hamilton Area) and beyond. Metrolinx has train/bus service daily out to Niagara Falls, Kitchener/Waterloo, Guelph, Barrie, Oshawa and all the way out to Peterbourgh. All of that will feed into the HSR.

and Toronto is the only place that truly has the infrastructure. Montreal is second and no one else is a close third. The only time the middle class will be riding the HSR is if the boss is paying for it. The average person has no reason to go to any of the proposed stops except for either business or vacation and if it is the later, out comes PMV. Costs too much to load up the family on any form of public transport. Single fare in advance is $122 so it would cost a family of 4 almost a thousand dollars so that won't happen. So yes, it will be the elite that ride it and you will move a few over for sure unless you do what Paris/Brussels did and cancel all flights. Figure 3 hours for either flying or HSR excluding time spent getting to and from your departure/destination point. Anywhere outside about a 10 mile radius is going to consume another minimum 30 minutes and probably closer to 1 hour. One of the difficulties that I see with the proposed HSR is simply that you can't get to it to take advantage of that speed.
Now lets go to a full service scenario with service starting well west of Toronto with two final destinations: a southern route operating out of the Hamilton area and going to Montreal and a northern route originating west of Kitchener through Toronto on dedicated tracks but not high speed with 5 minute stops in Guelph/Georgetown/Bramalea/Toronto/Peterborough/Norwood/Perth/Smith Falls or Carlton Place and Ottawa for the Kitchener departure will take approximately 4 hours and that accommodates everyone living adjacent to line without their ever having to put down their beer and puts all of them within 20 minutes of a station/stop with the exception of Norwood to Perth and that would be 45 minutes. It is less than 300 miles on more or less a straight line so that would require a train with a consistent speed of between 90 and 100 mph. This is easily doable provided there are no unguarded crossings and the right of way is secured by proper fencing. Developing a second route through Hamilton travelling east parallel to the existing line gives the entire GTA full coverage and, regardless of your destination in southern Ontario there would be a station within 20/30 minutes. So build a service that encompasses at least all of the Golden Horseshoe without changing trains first and then, if you still need it, put in your HSR, Incidentally, I would vote for the Ottawa Montreal route and for a Calgary Edmonton train. These are logical routes that don't have the extended population that the GTA has.

 

[ytz]

The only time the middle class will be riding the HSR is if the boss is paying for it.

There is no way they will meet their ridership numbers if this is true.

So either they are right. Or you (with no data or detailed knowledge of their plans) are right.

I would put my money on the pros.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

There is no way they will meet their ridership numbers if this is true.

So either they are right. Or you (with no data or detailed knowledge of their plans) are right.

I would put my money on the pros.

Single A ball players are "pro's".....doesn't mean they have a clue about playing in the big league.

But they always know how to get paid.....

 

[Altair]

There is no way they will meet their ridership numbers if this is true.

So either they are right. Or you (with no data or detailed knowledge of their plans) are right.

I would put my money on the pros.

150 to 180 flights between Montreal and Toronto per day.

Plus all the traffic on the 401.

All elites.

This thread is nothing but a hate fest over the largest drivers of the Canadian economy.

It must irk some that the economy of Toronto is bigger than the economy of Alberta or BC. God forbid they get a infrastucture project. If a project isnt moving raw resources out of the ground and out of the nation it's not worth it clearly.

 

[Good2Golf]

This thread is nothing but a hate fest over the largest drivers of the Canadian economy.

It must irk some that the economy of Toronto is bigger than the economy of Alberta or BC. Got forbid they get a infrastucture project. If a project isnt moving raw resources out of the ground and out of the nation it's not worth it clearly.

But….per capita! Per capita!

 

[mariomike]

150 to 180 flights between Montreal and Toronto per day.

Plus all the traffic on the 401.

It's busy. More than 65 million passengers pass through Union Station every year.

Union Station placed fifth overall on a list of the world's top 20 most high-performing rail hubs. It was the only Canadian rail station to make the list.

April 27 2026

The world’s most premium train stations

Train stations aren’t just places to pass through. Some offer a truly premium experience, with fine dining, luxury lounges and top-tier shopping. Find out which global hubs made the list.

www.allcleartravel.co.uk

 

[Czech_pivo]

and Toronto is the only place that truly has the infrastructure. Montreal is second and no one else is a close third. The only time the middle class will be riding the HSR is if the boss is paying for it. The average person has no reason to go to any of the proposed stops except for either business or vacation and if it is the later, out comes PMV. Costs too much to load up the family on any form of public transport. Single fare in advance is $122 so it would cost a family of 4 almost a thousand dollars so that won't happen. So yes, it will be the elite that ride it and you will move a few over for sure unless you do what Paris/Brussels did and cancel all flights. Figure 3 hours for either flying or HSR excluding time spent getting to and from your departure/destination point. Anywhere outside about a 10 mile radius is going to consume another minimum 30 minutes and probably closer to 1 hour. One of the difficulties that I see with the proposed HSR is simply that you can't get to it to take advantage of that speed.
Now lets go to a full service scenario with service starting well west of Toronto with two final destinations: a southern route operating out of the Hamilton area and going to Montreal and a northern route originating west of Kitchener through Toronto on dedicated tracks but not high speed with 5 minute stops in Guelph/Georgetown/Bramalea/Toronto/Peterborough/Norwood/Perth/Smith Falls or Carlton Place and Ottawa for the Kitchener departure will take approximately 4 hours and that accommodates everyone living adjacent to line without their ever having to put down their beer and puts all of them within 20 minutes of a station/stop with the exception of Norwood to Perth and that would be 45 minutes. It is less than 300 miles on more or less a straight line so that would require a train with a consistent speed of between 90 and 100 mph. This is easily doable provided there are no unguarded crossings and the right of way is secured by proper fencing. Developing a second route through Hamilton travelling east parallel to the existing line gives the entire GTA full coverage and, regardless of your destination in southern Ontario there would be a station within 20/30 minutes. So build a service that encompasses at least all of the Golden Horseshoe without changing trains first and then, if you still need it, put in your HSR, Incidentally, I would vote for the Ottawa Montreal route and for a Calgary Edmonton train. These are logical routes that don't have the extended population that the GTA has.

The more stops you add the longer the duration of the trip and the less appeal that it will have.

The 'Acela' train from Boston to Washington DC ( which I've taken about 5 times in the past 8yrs) is about 1/2 the proposed distance of the Toronto to Ville de Quebec route. The duration of the Boston to DC trip - 6.5hrs end to end - to go 1/2 the distance. Why? Well one of the two major reasons is because there are - 14 - stops along the route.......the other is the fact that it ONLY gets to HSR defining speeds for 1 stretch of 66km along the entire route. The route is electric and its supposedly meant to be the US's version of HSR. Its not.

The proposed route for our HSR should NOT go anywhere near the existing VIA rails through the Desoronto area as it will become 100% a tool to be used by the FN group in that area to shut it down. VIA has with this often enough.

I view these discussions very similar to the discussions area the costs of the 407 across the Hamilton to the western fringes of Peterbourgh. A fair number of people complain that it costs to much and that 'only the rich' can use. The goal of the 407 is to move volumes of traffic across that area of the province as quick as possible - that's it - its about efficiency, its about 'time vs money'. Bring the cost down and BAMM, the efficiency is gone, the reliability is gone and the time factor to use it goes up. A complete loosing strategy from a business/efficiency model. Its the same argument with HSR. Its meant to relive pressure from the airports and from the 401 east of Oshawa onto Quebec and Ottawa.

Another way to look at it is Canadians who make the choice to go Detroit or Buffalo or Cleveland in the southern Ontario area to get a medical procedure done instead of waiting weeks/months under OHIP. When those people go to the US and get their test/procedure done quickly and pay for it with their own money, I believe that they should be congratulated/commended for doing a 'good deed' for the rest of the people of Ontario. Why you might ask? Because by them doing so they have moved up/shorten the waiting times for those in Ontario who don't have the ability to pay for the test in the US themselves. They've shorten the list, created some efficiency and reduce the time for others to get what they need - again, 'time vs money' argument.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

150 to 180 flights between Montreal and Toronto per day.

Plus all the traffic on the 401.

All elites.

This thread is nothing but a hate fest over the largest drivers of the Canadian economy.

It must erk some that the economy of Toronto is bigger than the economy of Alberta or BC. Got forbid they get a infrastucture project. If a project its moving raw resources out of the ground and out of the nation it's not worth it clearly.

But that's where you're so wrong.
I love infrastructure in Southern Ontario, cant wait for the Bradford bypass to open. (If I'm still driving then)

Having said that, I just don't think another project that will cost another 90 billion, that we don't have, is required when we cant even look after the infrastructure we have now.

Your own admission that there are so many flights between Toronto and Montreal show that the area is already well serviced. I mean, once you get past Oshawa, the 401 isnt that busy at all heading to Montreal, once you get past the 417 cutoff it can be almost empty.

If we feel the need to spend another 90 billion of our kids future, why not spend that money on areas that aren't well serviced?
In Southern Ontario ......just like you want.

 

[Good2Golf]

It's busy. More than 65 million passengers pass through Union Station every year.

Union Station placed fifth overall on a list of the world's top 20 most high-performing rail hubs. It was the only Canadian rail station to make the list.

April 27 2026

The world’s most premium train stations

Train stations aren’t just places to pass through. Some offer a truly premium experience, with fine dining, luxury lounges and top-tier shopping. Find out which global hubs made the list.

www.allcleartravel.co.uk

Union Station is Toronto’s Yin to its Pearson Yang…

 

[Czech_pivo]

It's busy. More than 65 million passengers pass through Union Station every year.

Union Station placed fifth overall on a list of the world's top 20 most high-performing rail hubs. It was the only Canadian rail station to make the list.

April 27 2026

The world’s most premium train stations

Train stations aren’t just places to pass through. Some offer a truly premium experience, with fine dining, luxury lounges and top-tier shopping. Find out which global hubs made the list.

www.allcleartravel.co.uk

Yes and I'm one of them - I can still remember the 1 article and only 1, from the Toronto Star that brought up the fact that when they completed the reno to the 1920's 'train barn' roof over the tracks at Union that they had kneecapped themselves because the existing height restrictions meant that the distance from the track bed to the train barn roof was too low to accommodate an future electrification of the rail lines through Union station. No other news agency brought that up and viola, about 15-18 months ago Metrolinx quietly shut down most of the electrification of the Go lines across all of the GTA and Hamilton/KW/Niagara/Barrie area because of this issue.

 

[mariomike]

This thread is nothing but a hate fest over the largest drivers of the Canadian economy.

But, gotta love the memes. Lol

 

[Altair]

But that's where you're so wrong.
I love infrastructure in Southern Ontario, cant wait for the Bradford bypass to open. (If I'm still driving then)

Having said that, I just don't think another project that will cost another 90 billion, that we don't have, is required when we cant even look after the infrastructure we have now.

We don't have 90b over 15 years?

We don't have 6 billion a year?

We have a 3.3 trillion dollar economy and we cannot afford 6 billion dollars a year to build infrastructure for the largest population center and biggest economic driver of the nation?

I reject your premise sir, I reject it out of hand. We dumped 9 billion on the CAF this year and didn't blink an eye. We spend 80b or so on OAS. We can easily afford 90b over 15 years.

Your own admission that there are so many flights between Toronto and Montreal show that the area is already well serviced. I mean, once you get past Oshawa,the 401 isnt that busy at all heading to Montreal, once you get past the 427 cutoff it can be almost empty.

It's a piss poor service. That flight capacity could be used for overseas flights, long distance flights, instead it's being used to ferry people back and forth between Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto.

If we feel the need to spend another 90 billion of our kids future, why not spend that money on areas that aren't well serviced?
In Southern Ontario ......just like you want.

I again reject your premise.