Hmcs Ville de Quebec

[Neill McKay]

What's keeping her alongside?  (Is this another Huron in the making?)

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

As a Francophone, and a firm believer in official bilingualism, I believe that all of Her Majesty's Canadian Ships should communicate bilingually. In this, I mean that all opening communication could be stated bilingually, and then, the person that has to answer will respond in any on the two official languages. We should help the fight to keep French as a true official language, and not just consider it one when Francophones are around.

 

[Neill McKay]

As a Francophone, and a firm believer in official bilingualism, I believe that all of Her Majesty's Canadian Ships should communicate bilingually. In this, I mean that all opening communication could be stated bilingually, and then, the person that has to answer will respond in any on the two official languages. We should help the fight to keep French as a true official language, and not just consider it one when Francophones are around.

The issue here is that international radio traffic is generally handled in English -- it goes beyond internal Canadian communications.

Another issue, and perhaps there's a Communicator (or former Rad Op) here who can speak with more authority, is the need for brevity in radio communications.   You don't want to double the length of a message for the sake of language policy.

And finally, translation costs a mint, takes a surprising amount of time, and is prone to errors.   I don't imagine that every Communicator is bilingual.

I fully support the concept of a bilingual country, and I think we've been enriched by living in one, but there are bigger issues to consider with ships at sea.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

As a Francophone, and a firm believer in official bilingualism, I believe that all of Her Majesty's Canadian Ships should communicate bilingually. In this, I mean that all opening communication could be stated bilingually, and then, the person that has to answer will respond in any on the two official languages. We should help the fight to keep French as a true official language, and not just consider it one when Francophones are around.

Well said Neil...it seems that ctjj, should perhaps stay within his own arcs as his statement proves he knows little on how the navy operates. You do know Mr Stevenson that even the French Navy communicates in English?

BTW FYI its not just the Nav Comms manning the nets on board ships...its also NCI-OPs, NES-OPs, SONAR OPs and MARS Officers.

 

[Navalsnpr]

During the many NATO exercises / deployments I've been on, the common language for all countries participating has always been English. Even the Turkish Navy during my STANAVMED deployment had two interpreters onboard for that sole purpose and the senior members of the crew conversed on all comm nets in English.

Neill indicated many valid points regarding translations of message traffic. KISS goes a long way (Keep It Simple Stupid). If you have to pass a critical, time dependent message but can't send it in time because it requires translation, the result could be catastrophic.

Internationally, English is the language of the seas. It always has been and will always remain that way. NATO is not going to change it's ways just because one of its countries is Bi-lingual.

When it comes to International Forces, you have to look past the borders of Quebec and look at the larger picture.

 

[Inch]

Aviation is the same way, all English. In fact, pilot training is only conducted in English. I remember hearing one of the VDQ Det guys saying that one time someone got the bright idea to to make all comms on the VDQ in French, well that lasted about 5 minutes once the guys got in the helo, turns out that it's pretty difficult to translate something into French that doesn't translate. They knew absolutely nothing when it came to flying or comms since they had only ever learned it in English and didn't even know the French words for it.

But hey, what's another 2 years of training to relearn everything in French, we've got all the time and money in the world right?

 

[Navalsnpr]

But hey, what's another 2 years of training to relearn everything in French, we've got all the time and money in the world right?

Inch, problem is that it would take around 20 years to translate it all and make new acronyms and terms for those items that don't translate properly!!

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Go to Termium on the DIN.  It has all sorts of useful translations for everyday words like "hauldown system" and "flight deck".

I'm in the process of getting ready for my french test right now- learning all of the french equivalents to naval aviation terms so that I can use them exactly once- on my french test.  Good use of my time, no?

Sorry-ctjj.  I have to agree with all the others here- we communicate at sea and in the air in English, not because we are big bad oppressors, but because the rest of the world (including the French, at least in coalition or NATO ops) does to.  I have yet to see an exception, not matter how third world the country was.

Cheers

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

I guess that I've been convinced to look at the other side of the medal, and have to look at the cost and the realities of today's world. That was a shock to learn that even the French Marine nationale communicates in English.

A part of me still thinks that it seems wrong that unilingual Francophones can not have the same employment oppertunities as unilingual Anglophones, however, I believe that I read once that superior officers within the Canadian Forces must be bilingual, and this is a strength for Francophones because English is so much easier to learn then French (as it seems). 

Good day!

 

[Sub_Guy]

Sure most of the crew went to the gulf, so is that justification for having a multi-million dollar vessel sitting there as a  manning pool? Use the equipment we have, there is no reason why that ship couldn't have gone to the gulf...... As for the French language and message traffic (I am a Navcomm) and I would  shred it when I rxd it....................Be proud of your french language, it gets you PER points!!!!  Everybody who speaks foreign languages should get points for it not just francos........ I mean what good is French going to do ya, off the coast of Japan?  OR Iran?

 

[Neill McKay]

Everybody who speaks foreign languages should get points for it not just francos........ I mean what good is French going to do ya, off the coast of Japan?   OR Iran?

Small point of clarification, if you don't mind: French isn't a foreign language any more than English is.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

A part of me still thinks that it seems wrong that unilingual Francophones can not have the same employment oppertunities as unilingual Anglophones, however, I believe that I read once that superior officers within the Canadian Forces must be bilingual, and this is a strength for Francophones because English is so much easier to learn then French (as it seems)

cttj-  You are not far of off the truth.  It would be very difficult for a unilingual francophone to (at first) have exactly the same employment opportunities as a unilingual anglophone.  Many classifications, like MARS, pilot, and Air Navigator (just to name a few), have minimum english language requirements.  The training is offered only in english (sometimes with french assist), because of  our membership in NATO and partnership with the US on defence matters demands that most officers be able to communicate in english. Anglos often don't place as much emphasis on french at this early stage in their careers and it comes back to haunt them later on (it sure did for me!) As officers, we also have a responsibility to communicate with other Canadians- some of whom only speak french.  I'm currently on a year long french course and I can personnally attest to the difficulty for a unilingual Albertan who grew up in the days before french immersion in learning Canada's other official language.  I can also personally attest to the fact that most francophones actually gain a promotion advantage over anglos as they advance, because they tend (by necessity) to be more fluently bilingual earlier on in life- and good on them.  They have worked hard on their communication skills.

Really, I think it all balances out.  The lesson for all is to learn your second language as quickly as possible and carry on.

Cheers

 

[Sub_Guy]

Small point of clarification, if you don't mind: French isn't a foreign language any more than English is.

We don't get per points for speaking english, and those who speak french, most likely speak english.  Am I wrong or do French military personnel get english courses?  Isn't it easier for a franco to pick up one of these courses, than it is for me to get a franco course?  Seems a little out of wack to cater to 22% of Canada's population, when 18% have a mother tongue other than english or french.  I am just saying that people should be rewarded for thier abilities to speak other languages, other than french.

http://canadaonline.about.com/cs/statistics/a/statslang.htm

 

[Infanteer]

This is why I believe all schools in Canada should be Immersion schools where Canadians learn the other Official language - if you live in Alberta you go to French Immersion and if you live in the Ville de Quebec you go to English Immersion.

Unfortunately, the Supreme Court just upheld that heinous Language Law and bilingualism in Canada will remain a either/or concept.

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

I understand why the Supreme Court would not want to touch bill 101 too much ... it could have created choas in the Province of Québec, and the PQ would win all the points here. I believe that politically, the Supreme Court might have done the right thing for National unity, however I am sorry for the families affected by the decision.

 

[Navalsnpr]

Am I wrong or do French military personnel get English courses?  

Just about all unilingual Francophones who go in the Navy get a English course early in their career.

Isn't it easier for a franco to pick up one of these courses, than it is for me to get a franco course?

I've been asking for 6 years for a French Course....Nothing yet!!

In my trade, I would make a rough guess and state that 60% of the CPO2(MWO) positions and above are occupied by Francophones and all those Chiefs are also very young. Based on that, you can easily see that being bilingual early in your career will really assist with promotions throughout your career.

 

[Sub_Guy]

I don't agree with French Immersion, for several reasons, I am english, and although French came easily to me in School/High School I speak english in my house, and from experience Nieces and Nephews, they seem to be weak in both languages, where as the ones who go to strictly english schools excel.

Why would I send My kids to French Immersion in BC?  I mean sure it would set them up for a great government job and thats about it.  I will encourage other languages, as you may be more employable if you were to learn Mandarin Chinese, Japanese, or Spanish.    I am sorry but outside Quebec, and parts of New Brunswick the french language is non-existant in Canada. 


Another issue
I am a little disturbed that if a Franco joins the forces, and he can't speak english he gets a course, an Anglo joins, and he has to beg, beg, request, request year after year to get a second language course, and the odds are that he will never attend a course unless he is a young and coming PO2, and then he will only keep his profile up to date for the points.  Isn't that some sort of discrimination?  Or is this the Liberals way to encourage more french people to join?  I say drop the second language PER points, and then we will see how many people are requesting second language courses.  Do it because you want to, not because you feel the need to......

 

[Neill McKay]

I don't agree with French Immersion, for several reasons, I am english, and although French came easily to me in School/High School I speak english in my house, and from experience Nieces and Nephews, they seem to be weak in both languages, where as the ones who go to strictly english schools excel.

That surprises me.  The conventional wisdom here in NB seems to be that French Immersion students tend to do better in English than the English students.  There must be some other factors at play in one province or the other that aren't obvious.

 

[ctjj.stevenson]

I might be an idealist, but this is my vision of the country....

A country were all Canadians are thought to learn at least English in French well enough that tey will be able to communicate with any Canadian anywhere in the Canada. However, we can also encourage people to learn other languages (if they are part of a minority culture in Canada). Firstly, having everyone fluent in both languages will only be great for the country, and everyone will be able to communicate, without anger. Also, seeing that there always existed a "battle" between French in English in Europe (in the past at least), Canada will be the supreme example where these two cultural groups can co-exist in peace.

Also, keeping Canada as a multicultural state and encouraging members of "minority" cultures to keep there languages will be benifical for Canada (Seeing that there doesn't really exist an official Canadian culture, then no culture could really be a minority, right?). Canada could have dipolmatic representation in all countries in the world, without having to pay for translators from the host country to help the Canadian diplomatic mission.

(with O Canada playing in the background)
Therefore, Canada could be a shining beckon of human peaceful co-existance.


Chris

 

[Neill McKay]

(Seeing that there doesn't really exist an official Canadian culture, then no culture could really be a minority, right?).

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that there's no Canadian culture; there certainly is.