Hong Kong- Merged

[The Bread Guy]

... he was a very good doctor for his time, devising novel ways of treating TB and was big in bringing the blood transfusion into it's being...the important parts of medical history people like to ignore.

I see that in what little reading I've done about him, too.

To be fair to him and the MacPaps who fought in Spain, they were different times indeed and not without some validity on behalf of those who were fighting Fascism in it's various forms.

That was a time when a lot of folks didn't realize how much the "good guys" were really quite like the "bad guys".

However heroic (or not) Bethune might have been in reality, he was only human after all and we all have our flaws in the cold light of day and hindsight which is always 20/20.

And Lord only knows how his day-to-day would have held up under today's social media scrutiny/cage rattling ...

 

[Pusser]

Back to the PM:  I wonder if he hoisted in the fact that many of the Canadians who are buried in Hong Kong are there because of a lack of preparation, planning and proper equipment - all political failures...

 

[jollyjacktar]

My thoughts of reply # 1.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Well, he must be a hero, we have an official statue of him erected in a square that bears his name downtown Montreal.  :nod:

As for Trudeau's visit at the War cemetery, I agree that this is a "haters gotta hate" and "lovers gotta love" situation. But regardless of your personal side of the debate on the individual at issue, I for one believe that it is a sacred duty for our Prime Ministers to attend at war cemeteries of Canadian soldiers whenever they happen to be in the vicinity on other business - and that it should be publicly acknowledged.

These soldiers were sent there by Canada, and they gave their lives for Canada. It is a solemn duty of our PMs to acknowledge their sacrifice.

I also have to say that, for once, I thought the coverage by the CBC's National was in good tone, and I particularly appreciated the reference to the fact that the service of these Canadians in defence of Honk Kong is an often overlooked or ignored contribution to the war effort. If this makes some kids want to know more and discovered that they were basically sacrificed uselessly by Churchill, who would not countenance the strong urging of Australian PM Menzies (who foresaw clearly the Japanese intent) to strongly reinforce the colony and stop Japanese expansion there and then. I would also hope those same kids would then discover how the Japanese treated the Commonwealth soldiers captured as POW.

 

[Lightguns]

My biggest take away from Hong Kong is the  necessity of National political and Military command of own troops and the unity of those commands.  The rationalization of Canadians in Hong Kong would never be considered reasonable by our standards today.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Well, he must be a hero, we have an official statue of him erected in a square that bears his name downtown Montreal.  :nod:

As for Trudeau's visit at the War cemetery, I agree that this is a "haters gotta hate" and "lovers gotta love" situation. But regardless of your personal side of the debate on the individual at issue, I for one believe that it is a sacred duty for our Prime Ministers to attend at war cemeteries of Canadian soldiers whenever they happen to be in the vicinity on other business - and that it should be publicly acknowledged.

These soldiers were sent there by Canada, and they gave their lives for Canada. It is a solemn duty of our PMs to acknowledge their sacrifice.

I also have to say that, for once, I thought the coverage by the CBC's National was in good tone, and I particularly appreciated the reference to the fact that the service of these Canadians in defence of Honk Kong is an often overlooked or ignored contribution to the war effort. If this makes some kids want to know more and discovered that they were basically sacrificed uselessly by Churchill, who would not countenance the strong urging of Australian PM Menzies (who foresaw clearly the Japanese intent) to strongly reinforce the colony and stop Japanese expansion there and then. I would also hope those same kids would then discover how the Japanese treated the Commonwealth soldiers captured as POW.

I think that's the key point and it's why public reporting is right and proper (it is something more than just a photo op) and why it is equally right and proper to discuss it in open fora like this.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Valid points. I'm wrong. I'm probably just afflicted with JT photo-op fatigue.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Valid points. I'm wrong. I'm probably just afflicted with JT photo-op fatigue.

Many people are, but not everything the prime minister says or does is, automatically, wrong just because he was your or my choice ... he has done, is doing and will do some smart, helpful, useful and "good" things for Canada, too.

 

[mariomike]

These soldiers were sent there by Canada, and they gave their lives for Canada. It is a solemn duty of our PMs to acknowledge their sacrifice.

I would also hope those same kids would then discover how the Japanese treated the Commonwealth soldiers captured as POW.

:goodpost:

 

[Jarnhamar]

Many people are, but not everything the prime minister says or does is, automatically, wrong just because he was your or my choice ... he has done, is doing and will do some smart, helpful, useful and "good" things for Canada, too.

True but in fairness I think the credit should really go to the advisors (mandarins?) you mentioned in the past.  I find the PM seems to space out when someone asks him unrehearsed questions. But yes, haters gonna hate  ;D

 

[YZT580]

True but in fairness I think the credit should really go to the advisors (mandarins?) you mentioned in the past.  I find the PM seems to space out when someone asks him unrehearsed questions. But yes, haters gonna hate  ;D

  A good manager/leader is one who is not afraid to rely upon the advise of others.  Trudeau will end up as a good leader if he learns to surround himself with independent thinkers and listens to them instead of or along with the cadre of 'old boys' that the party has foisted upon him.  (and no, I did not vote for his party's candidate in my riding)

 

[CountDC]

Many people are, but not everything the prime minister says or does is, automatically, wrong just because he was your or my choice ... he has done, is doing and will do some smart, helpful, useful and "good" things for Canada, too.

missed them as I am still waiting for him to do some.  maybe all the photo-ops made me blind.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Via the Info-machine:

The Honourable Kent Hehr, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence, issued the following statement to mark the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Hong Kong:

    “Tomorrow marks the 75th anniversary of the beginning of the Battle of Hong Kong, an important and solemn chapter in Canada’s long military history. On this day, we take time to honour and remember the brave Canadian heroes who fought to protect the people of Hong Kong and suffered extreme hardships both during and after the battle.

    “In late October 1941, Canadian soldiers traveled from Vancouver to Hong Kong to aid in the defence of the vulnerable British colony. On December 8, 1941, the Japanese attacked and our soldiers there would become the first Canadian Army unit to see heavy action in the Second World War. Over the course of more than 17 days, these men, mostly members of the Winnipeg Grenadiers and the Royal Rifles of Canada, would represent Canada on the world stage in defence of the area.

    “Against overwhelming odds, the brave Canadians in Hong Kong fought on. Although many of our soldiers were very inexperienced, they defended Hong Kong with great strength until they were finally forced to surrender on Christmas Day. What followed for the survivors were close to four years in harsh Japanese prisoner of war camps before finally being liberated when the Second World War ended in 1945.

    “The fighting in Hong Kong took a heavy toll: some 290 of our men were killed and almost 500 more were wounded defending the colony. More than 260 additional Canadian soldiers would later die in the brutal Japanese camps. In 2011, in a gesture of reconciliation, the Japanese government issued a formal apology to Canada’s Veterans for their mistreatment of prisoners during the Second World War.

    “We will never forget the brave Canadians who fought in the Battle of Hong Kong. The legacy of those who did not return home lives on in our memories. The members of the Winnipeg Grenadiers and the Royal Rifles of Canada, and our other soldiers who served in Hong Kong represent the very best of our country; not only did they fight to defend the peace and freedom of another nation, but they also fought for the sake of future generations.

    “Lest we forget.”

– 30 –​

 

[MarkOttawa]

The start of a major NY Times article on the Canadians at Hong Kong, 1941:

A Doomed Battle for Hong Kong, With Only Medals Left 75 Years Later

BARRIE, Ontario — John Lawson has only a few tokens to remember his father by: military medals, a couple of dog tags and a silver ID bracelet that encircled his father’s wrist as bullets did their work in Hong Kong one terrible winter day 75 years ago this week.

There was a little pocket diary once, too, but that was lost in a fire. Mr. Lawson remembers two of the last words that his father wrote, summing up the situation before the ordeal that led to his death: “Quite impossible.”

Remembrances of war are worth noting not just for the lives lost but for the bad decisions that led inexorably to the waste of those lives. Mr. Lawson need not have grown up without a father, but misinformation, poor planning and simple incompetence left him with little more than a pocketful of ornaments instead of a man.

Brig. John K. Lawson, Mr. Lawson’s father, was the highest-ranking Canadian soldier killed in action during World War II. He was cut down by machine-gun fire in the doomed defense of Hong Kong, a largely forgotten battle that claimed the lives of nearly 3,000 soldiers, 290 of them Canadian.

The debate over what went wrong raged in the aftermath of the war but has long since grown cold. These days, the sacrifice and courage of those who died are remembered more than the senselessness of their deaths. But historians have long acknowledged that it was a mistake to send untested Canadian boys to defend an indefensible island...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/23/world/canada/a-doomed-battle-for-hong-kong-with-only-medals-left-75-years-later.html?emc=edit_th_20161224&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=19349345&_r=0

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Chispa]

Source: DHH 2 H.Q., “unofficial” Report No. 52.,  31st., May 1952: On all occasions when Canadian forces operated detached during the Second World War, their commanders were provided With special directives defining their relationship to the British or Allied forces With and under Which they were acting. They were normally accorded the right of reference . (i.e., of appeal) to the Canadian Government in extreme cases.

Commanders placed under United Kingdom higher command were advised that they were acting within the framework of the Visiting Forces Act. They were informed that they had authority to remove their forces from "in combination  with the British forces under the terms of that Act - that is, to take them from under British operational commend - but that this should not be done except in extreme cases. For example,


Parts of the directive issued to The Canadian Brigade Commander sent to Hong Kong in 1941 as fallows:

5. While the designation referred to in paragraph 3 of these instructions allows you discretion, you will not take the forces under your command out of combination with the British Forces serving in Hong Kong other than in circumstances that you judge to be of compelling necessity, in which case you are to seek further instructions from Canada.
6. In the fulfillment of )'our mission, you will bear in mind that all matters concerning Military operations will be dealt with by you through the General Officer Commanding Hong Kong, whose powers in these respects in relation to the Force under your command are exercisable within the limitations laid down in the Visiting Forces Act (Canada) •.••
8. You will keep constantly in mind the fact that you are responsible to the Canadian Government for the Force under your command. In consequence your channel of authority end communication on all questions (except those concerning military operations referred to in paragraph 6 of these instructions) including matters of general policy as well as of• transfers , exchanges, recalls and reinforcements, will be direct to National Defence Headquarters, (HQS 20-1-20, 20 Oct 41).


Privy Council Office: Report on the Canadian Expeditionary Force to the Crown colony of Hong Kong. 1942, 61 p. http://publications.gc.ca/site/eng/472900/publication.html



Hong Kong Inquiry: Abstract Editor’s note: This document, dated 1 March 1942, is Stuart’s brief to the Royal Commission which examined the Hong Kong operation—Sir Lyman Duff, “Report on the Canadian Expeditionary Force to the Crown Colony of Hong Kong” (Ottawa, 1942), commonly referred to as the “Duff Report.”

Recommended Citation: Stuart, Kenneth (2001) "Hong Kong Inquiry," Canadian Military History: Vol. 10 : Iss. 4 , Article 6. Available at: http://scholars.wlu.ca/cmh/vol10/iss4/6


C.U.