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Hong Kong- Merged

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  An old friend ( since passed away ) was once telling me about a Canadian Infantry unit at the beginning of World War II was defeated at Hong Kong . I can't remember the name of the battalion .
Where can I find out about the Canadian Army participation in battle for Hong Kong ?
 
Two Canadian infantry Battalions The Royal Rifles of Canada and The Winnipeg Grenadiers designated C Force under Brigadier J K Lawson were despatched in Oct/Nov 1941 to reinforce the British Garrison there. Neither Battalion was fully trained or equipped at the time. It was thought the training could be completed there prior to a coming wart with Japan. As it happened there was no time as the Japanese attacked on December 8, 1941

Despite their lack of training and support the Canadian’s made a fanatical if futile attempt to defend the island against overwhelming odds and accounted for more Japanese casualties than any other unit in the garrison (2 under strength Brigades). Most of this information was provided by Japanese testimony after the war and contradicts the statements made by the overall garrison commander General Maltby who according to some sources tried to blame the Canadians for the loss of the vital port.

After the garrison surrendered on December 25th, the survivors were interred by the Japanese under brutal conditions until 1945.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hong_Kong

Lawson was Killed in Action. Company Sergeant Major John Robert Osborn of the Winnipeg Grenadiers was posthumously awarded the VC, the first won by a Canadian in WW2.

There is a more than one argument that the mission should never have been undertaken and was a waste of two battalions.

Incidentally the ship carrying their vehicles and heavy equipment was diverted to Manila after Hong Kong fell and then used by the Americans to defend Bataan.
 
  Thanks for information . I had to start somewhere . Jim was an old friend , an Englishman who volunteered for the Canadian Army in World War II . I could not remember the battalion he was referring to . He had originally been in, I think, a Winnipeg battalion . He had been transferred out to the Engineers before they sailed for Hong Kong . He had known many of the men who had died both in the fighting and captivity .

  Thanks for the many sources .


 
Hey all
I do not know that much about military law.

The following can be found in many accounts but the best I have come across is The Battle for Hong Kong 1941-1945 Hostage to Fortune by Oliver Lindsay (with JR Harris) Chapter 15 pp 145-152
On page 150 he makes the claim that Wallis wanted to or considered shooting the Canadians who wished to surrender!

On Dec 25th (1 day before the colony surrendered) Lt. Col Holmes of the RRofC (who was the highest ranking "C" Force officer still alive) tried to stop the Canadians from fighting because he felt further resistance was useless and a waste of lives.  He came into conflict with his commanding officer Brig. Wallis, who wanted the Canadians to launch a counter attack.
Holmes eventually gave in and D Company was sent in and largely destroyed (much has been written about this)

One of the best accounts of D company is MacDonell, George S. One Soldier’s Story 1939-1945: From the fall of Hong Kong to the Defeat of Japan. Dundurn Press Toronto 2002.
Pp 84 talks about the events of the 25th dec
(he claims D Company 26 killed 75 wounded, in other places I have seen 16 killed and 78 wounded)

Wallis has stated after that he thought about having Holmes arrested, would this have been legal?

My question is what was the proper action of Holmes?  What if he had refused to let Canadians fight?
On the one hand he was the commander of the Canadians, on the other he was fighting as part of a coalition under British leadership.

The instructions given to Lawson were:
To participate to the limit of your strength in the defence of the colony.
Insofar as discipline is concerned, the General Officer Commanding has not … been vested with authority to convene and confirm the findings and sentences of Court-Martial, in respect of Canadian personnel serving under your command.
You will keep constantly in mind the fact that you are responsible to the Canadian Government for the Force under you command

Instructions to Lawson from Government of Canada in Stacey Six Years if War Volume 1 pp450


BUT the Visiting Forces (British Commonwealth) Acts of 1933 states:
any officer of the other force appointed by His Majesty … to command the combined force, or any part thereof, shall be treated and shall have over members of the home force the powers of command and punishment, and may be invested with the like authority to convene, and confirm the findings and sentences of, court martial as if he were an officer of the home force of the relative rank and holding the same command
Stacey pp 255

This seems to me to be a contradiction and open to interpretation so I was wondering about your thoughts.
I have no idea if Holmes or Wallis would be aware of Lawson's instructions or the Visiting Forces act.
This is confusing as it is so during active operations I think we can all appreciate how stressful this could be.

Stacey also writes:
In field operations, in which other considerations are secondary to the defeat of the enemy, Canada inevitable surrendered a very large measure of operation control over her troops to the designated supreme Allied commanders in the theatres, and to the commanders of higher formations in which her troops were serving.
pp. 212

Hope that helps a bit
Also the Wikipedia Battle of Hong Kong has some good links
Thanks
 
Do you have references for your statements?  While the question is interesting, to get into a discussion without being familiar with the background would be time consuming.
 
A memorial wall dedicated to the Canadian Army's "C" Force that was overrun defending Hong Kong that fateful December of 1941 will be dedicated this Saturday in Ottawa:

http://www.hkvca.ca/index.htm

1100 hrs. at the corner of King Edward Avenue and Sussex Drive.

Note the 3rd vignette in this series of Military Heritage Minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T34lzgr_XME

We Will Remember Them !  :salute:
 
Canadians gathered in Ottawa for a solemn ceremony today, to recognize the nearly 2,000 men who fought to protect Hong Kong during the Second World War.
Article Link

In 1941, the island was under British rule when the Japanese military invaded. The Canadian soldiers were vastly outnumbered and faced insurmountable odds -- about 290 died in the fighting.

The rest were held captive under horrible conditions, and another 300 died as they were starved and tortured by their captors until the war ended four years later.

On Saturday, officials unveiled a granite wall etched with the names of every Canadian who fought in the battle.

Among those attending the ceremony was International Trade Minister Stockwell Day, whose grandfather was captured.

"These veterans have sort of felt like the forgotten heroes of the Second World War," he told CTV News Channel. "The Battle of Hong Kong, until today, really hasn't been memorialized.

Day's grandfather survived his imprisonment and was taken back to Canada, but died shortly afterwards in hospital.

Only about 90 of the veterans are still alive, and some were healthy enough to attend the ceremony.

More on link, including video
 
263 died in the battle, 294 died while in captivity.

Sgt. Major John Osborn - Winnipeg Grenadiers - Victoria Cross
Several enemy grenades were thrown which Company Sergeant-Major Osborn picked up and threw back. The enemy threw a grenade which landed in a position where it was impossible to pick it up and return it in time. Shouting a warning to his comrades this gallant Warrant Officer threw himself on the grenade which exploded, killing him instantly. His self-sacrifice undoubtedly saved the lives of many others.
 
The one thing I dislike about being Canadian. It happened in 1941 it is now 2009. 68 years later we get  around to building a memorial for for almost 600 men whp died in distant lands for King, Country, adventure and the glory.
I hope we do not have to wait 68 years for memorial to the warriors we lost in this battle. 68 years is too long to wait. I am glad it is done.
Those men earned it the hard way. Well done troops
 
Also renown for his valour, and lost during the battle, was Sgt Gander

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Gander+Royal+Riflemen+best+friend/1896089/story.html
 
See the following blog post by John Ibbitson on the PM's visit to the Hong Kong Commonwealth War Graves cemetery.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/bureau-blog/the-too-forgotten-war-dead/article1390412/
 
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/entertainment/books/ottawa-historian-honours-battle-of-hong-kong-vets-105093309.html

I worked on maps for Nathan Greenfield`s book called Baptism of Fire (Ypres 1915) and if that`s any indication this book should be worth the effort.

Book show at War Museum early Dec.

Enjoy! Xmas is coming.
 
Thanks for the heads up. By sheer coincidence, I was reading about this tragic affair this very morning in Tony Banham's "Not The Slightest Chance".
It's most certainly a topic that has been overlooked by many Canadian military historians, and any new study is sure to be a welcome addition.
 
54/102 CEF said:
Book show at War Museum early Dec.

Enjoy! Xmas is coming.

Thanks for the information. I will have to arrange to be at the War Museum to attend the book show.
I am very interested in this because my old Militia unit perpetuates the history of the 7th/11th Hussars who provided several hundred volunteers to flesh out the Royal Rifles of Canada. The 7th/11th huddars were granted the right to display 1941 Hong Kong on their guidon. I am always amazed at the willingness and sheer enthusiasm people displayed at the start of WWII.

FYI the small village of Bury, Quebec, lost 30 men because of Hong Kong. This gave Bury the unhappy distinction of having lost the largest proportion of its volunteers of any municipality. It's a sad thing to be able to stand at their war memorial and read the list of  names, so many names for such a small village
 
Prime Minister Harper will, once again, spend Remembrance Day in Hong Kong, at the Sai Wan War Cemetery, at the end of his current Asian (mostly to India) trip.

I hope that he and, especially, the journalists attending reflect on what happened there 70 years ago. Despite the heroism, and there was plenty, the Battle of Hong Kong was a colossal failure: at the strategic, operational and tactical levels. Unfortunately the tragedy was magnified when some senior officers tried to blame their subordinates for systemic failures. There was never a sensible sane plan for the defence of Hong Kong, and it is wrong to blame Maj Gen Maltby for that (there are plenty of reasons to blame Maltby for many other things) because his ability to craft and implement a sound plan were circumscribed by:

1. Orders from London; and

2. Resources - he did not have enough and most of what he had was inadequate in quality.

The simple fact is that, with exception of the Indians (Punjabs and Rajputs), none of the troops were ready or properly equipped to face the Japanese. Just before being promoted and sent to command them, then Col J.K. Lawson, a skilled and experienced regular officer and the Director of Military Training in Ottawa, had declared both the Royal Rifles and the Winnipeg Grenadiers to be unfit for combat, despite the fact that both units had been mobilized for months. The Canadian Army was growing too fast and, for the most part, only units in England were receiving anything like adequate training and equipment. But they were, at the end of October 1941, sent to Hong Kong anyway. Didn't Ottawa know that a war with Japan was looming on the horizon? Yes, probably, but, in fairness, not so soon and they (Prime Minister King, Defence Minister Ralson and Chief of the General Staff (then Maj Gen) Harry Crerar) were unprepared for the speed and violence of the Japanese offensive. Maj Gen Maltby wasn't a bad general, but he wasn't a good enough leader: he understood his grave, even hopeless situation but he lacked the moral where-with-all to defy London and mount a defence that had some remote chance of success ~ and please don't ask me what that defense might have involved: look at the maps, looks at the ORBATs and comprehend futility. Then, as now, Hong Kong Island needs the mainland ("Kowloon side") for survival, but the island, itself, might have been defensible, with adequate troops, supplies and preparations ... until the water ran out.

Canadians have much about which to be proud, despite Maj Gen Maltby's and Brig Wallis' self serving accounts of the battles, both of which tried to lay of blame on to brave Canadian officers, one of whom, Lawson, had died, in battle, with two guns blazing; the Canadians fought as well as one might expect given their poor states of training and inadequate support. But: Canada did not perform well - our whole Army, and the Navy, too, had grown too fast and both were, broadly, unfit to fight until much later in the war. The British "plan" for the defence of Hong Kong was to add minimal resources - Britain was stretched too thinly - and hope the bluff would work. I don't know if King, Ralston and Crerar understood the poverty of London's "thinking," if we can call it that, but they went along.

The lessons of Hong Kong are, or should be, clear:

1. We, Canada, never know when or where we will have to fight. The admirals, generals, bureaucrats and officials in DND, the PCO, DFAIT and the PMO are not doing/thinking strategy, they are planning and programming for the next election. That's what King was doing in the 1930s; Lawson, Hennesy (Lawson's principle staff officer) and the men of The Royal Rifle of Canada and the Winnipeg Grenadiers would pay dearly for our failure to plan, adequately, for the defence of our country. I say "our failure" because most, indeed almost all Canadians, agreed with King's decisions to fight the Great Depression rather than prepare the CF for a war King did not believe would come just as almost all Canadians support Prime Minister Harper's decisions to fight the Great Recession by, in part, starving the CF of the resources it needs to keep itself fit to fight.

2. We cannot mobilize quickly or well - we lack stocks of materiel and enough trained officers and NCOs who can, in their train, train new troops.

3. We should not assume that our "senior partner," now the USA has any useful, sensible plan for much of anything.

 
ERC, awesome and informative post as always.  Lots to think about.
 
Good post, Edward. A couple of points to help put things in context:

First, the Canadian Army was not alone in experiencing growing problems. All the western armies went through the same sort of process, which in the case of the British and Commonwealth nations was exacerbated because no one had really spent much time thinking about anything but a replay of the Great War. Heck, the Germans had their share of challenges in Poland and they had been getting ready seriously for a fairly long time. It is true that the Canadian government and especially Prime Minister King was not keen on the idea of an expeditionary force and did not really get serious until after the invasion of France and the Low Countries on 10 May, 1940.  As for the two battalions, their personnel were probably a good cross section of what one would have found in the rest of the army. The Winnipeg Grenadiers had been mobilized as a machine gun battalion on 1 September 1939, converted to infantry when the number of thse units in a division was reduced from one per brigade to one for the division and sent to garrision Bermuda and Jamaica. The Royal Rifles mobilized on 24 May 1940 and within a few months were sent to Newfoundland. Neither unit had a chance to train at much above the section and platoon level.

That is only  part of the lesson. The major lesson is that pitching to do one's bit is all very good, but one had better think through the implications. We are probably lucky that the bungle in the jungle was stillborn and today's Canadian Army is light years ahead of what existed on 1 September 1939 in terms of organization, training, equipment and just about any other category one could think of, except perhaps for the potential to expand rapidly. However, as the flavour of the week is the come as you are war, that is not a bad thing. I wonder how we would have coped if Afghanistan had begun to generate casualties even on the scale of Korea. 
 
I knew a man in my hometown who was there with the Winnipeg Grenadiers.  He had been, my Dad told me, a Medic and his experiences in both battle and captivity scarred him mentally for life.  I can only imagine.

:brit poppy:
 
I always thought Hong Kong rhymed with Norway. Sort of Hong Kong North.

Gave MHO to a guest speaker from NDHQ. The General was not pleased.
 
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