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How Australia‘s military does with less

kurokaze

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Canada.com Story

LONDON - The Canadian army will be stretched to the limit and perhaps beyond for the next year and a half, rotating 1,900 soldiers at a time through two six-month tours in Afghanistan where it takes over from Germany next week.

Meanwhile, Australia, which landed nearly 5,000 fighting troops at one time on Timor in 2000 and still has troops there, also made a modest contribution to the Anglo-American fighting force in Iraq. The country also dispatched 1,500 soldiers to the Solomon Islands, east of New Guinea, last month to lead a peacekeeping force that was put together so quickly it does not have a mandate from the UN or any other international organization.

There was a time when Canada and Australia both punched above their weight. Each country made immense contributions, at great cost in lives and money, in the First World War, the Second World War and the Korean War.

The reality today, as can be seen in Afghanistan, Timor and the Solomons, is entirely different. Canada spends an inordinate amount of time fretting about its shrinking role in the world, and its woefully under-funded Armed Forces, but does nothing about it. Australia acts with confidence on the global stage, using military capabilities that Canada no longer possesses to take leadership roles in peacemaking and peacekeeping.

There are many examples of the growing disparity between Canadian and Australian military capabilities. A company of infantrymen from the Royal 22nd Regiment landed on a palm-fringed beach in Timor three years ago. But those Van Doos did not reach the beach in Suai on a Canadian landing craft launched from a Canadian assault ship. Because Canada has no landing craft and no assault ships, the Van Doos used the Australian assault ship, HMAS Tobruk, and its landing craft to go ashore.

In the early going, Canada also had difficulty supplying the Van Doos in Timor. Canada‘s C-130 Hercules aircraft, which are almost all more than 30 years old, were late getting to Timor because they broke down along the way.

To be fair, Canada exists in the quietest corner in the world (and has never had any qualms about accepting American protection for free), while Australia lies in the southern oceans with lots of trouble brewing nearby. But the world has taken a very sour turn lately and it is Australia, not Canada, that has been quietly gearing up to combat the new dangers. Australia obviously regards itself as the neighbourhood policeman while Canada is still figuring what is to be its place in the ugly new order.

In the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the U.S. and the Bali bombing in 2002, Australia has made defence spending its top priority in planning fiscal decisions, mentioning defence spending in its 2003 budget far more than any other spending, while Canada‘s budget speech stressed health care, child care, welfare and education.

And it has committed money, in addition to tough talk, pledging to increase its defence budget by three per cent annually to 2011. Australia intends to spend $14.37 billion Cdn this year, compared to Canada‘s $13 billion. More telling, Australia spends 1.9 per cent of gross domestic product on defence compared to 1.1 per cent for Canada.

The other difference is that Australia spends a greater percentage of its money on combat capability. It literally seeks bang for its buck.

Canada has 32 million people and Australia has 19.5 million, but each country has just more than 50,000 men and women in uniform.

Australia not only has assault ships and landing craft. It has about the same number of active F18 fighter jets as Canada. And, unlike Canada, Australia also has long-range F111 bombers.

Like Canada, Australia has transport and search-and-rescue helicopters, but none so old as Canada‘s venerable Sea Kings. Unlike Canada, Australia also has attack helicopters, with more on order.

Australia built its own diesel submarines. To stay in the same business, Canada took what amounted to a gift of used British diesel submarines. More embarrassing still, Australian taxpayers saved huge sums of money when its air force and navy recently began recruiting Canadian pilots and naval officers whose expensive training had already been paid for by the Canadian government.

Furthermore, since the Chrétien government chose not to join the war against Iraq, Canada has been excluded for the first time from the tight intelligence circle that it developed with Washington, London and Canberra nearly 90 years ago -- it is another ****ing indicator of where Canada finds itself in this turbulent new world.

Despite decades of neglect by successive Canadian governments, the Royal Canadian Regiment, which is leading Canada‘s dangerous Afghan mission, and the Van Doos who will follow them to Kabul next February, will do its duty and do it well. But they deserve far better. Australia shows Canada that a plucky country with limited financial resources can have a military that has teeth, confidence and purpose.
 
I‘m no master of budgets or fiscal responsibility, but this just doesn‘t make sense.

How on earth can the Australian government, for essentially the same amount of money (1 billion more, that‘s it) afford so much more equipment and supplies? I guess perhaps a more likely and plausable question is, what are we doing wrong that we can‘t do the same?

Then again, I‘m making my way through the book Tarnished Brass, and I‘m beginning to see where all the money‘s gone/going...
 
I don‘t get it‘ we allegedly pledge all this money to education, and yet the headline a week ago was the girl who researched a cure for Alzheimers and was turned down by 4 Canadian universities until Princeton gave her a scholarship.

WTF? It wouldn‘t be so bad being a laughing stock militarily, IF one could think that the money was actually being used to further not just Canadian interests, but world interests. So where is all this ‘education‘ money going?
 
Well, I suppose if you start adding up how much $$ we spend on English/French Translation, and the $$ spent on the second language training schools we operate, and all the other "mickey mouse" stuff we spend the $$ on you will realize why we don‘t have the same capabilty as the Aussie‘s do.

It would also be very interesting to see a comparison of salaries bewteen the Aussie‘s and us, including what their senior officers are paid.
 
Michael you have to remember that Papa Jean needs all that taxpayers money for his "legacy." That is aside from a billion misplaced here and a billion mispent there.

But what a legacy it will be. A disarmed, broke, illiterate, but politically correct country.

I wonder how hard it is to immigrate to Australia if you‘re not a pilot or a squid, but just a beat up old grunt?
 
Tarnished Brass, even if it is only half true - made me sick. i wonder if Australia has the same problems (some may say benefits) with patronage as we do. I remember the BS when we were replacing the 5/4s - Western Stars falling apart at trials, and the govt we-writing the bid standards to meet what they had. It is all sickening. Like Danjanou said, in the movie thread - I think the Aussies have more military pride, as a nation, than we do - I‘m sure thats a factor, as well.
 
To help answer what the Australians get paid here is a link to their pay structures:

http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dpedet/ADF%20Pay%20&%20Conditions/Volume%201/Chapter%202/Part%201/Part%201%20Annexes.htm

Cheers.
 
Nice link wingman, for those interested in seeing how much your Aussie counterpart makes as of today the Australian Dollar was trading at 91 cents Cdn.

What this doesn‘t really show though is how much their military members receive in regards to other subsidies, ie rates for military housing, their version of Canex, various other allowances, any tax breaks etc. That would affect how much a Aussie soldier makes in "real" dollars.

Anyone care to guess that they get more bang for their buck there too.
 
Hmmm, looks like their pay rates are structured similar to the U.S. -- NCM pay doesn‘t catch up to 2Lt/Lt rates until the rank of Sgt. Does this mean that the Aussies and America junior officers are paid well and privates/corporals paid poorly or does it mean that Canadian corporals get paid well and junior officers get poor pay?

The difference in bang for the buck the govt spend might be accounted for in legacy costs (I‘m using "legacy" in the generic, business term and not the "Chretien‘s Legacy" form) for various projects and social benefits in the military. It‘s sort of like how GM and Ford have higher costs than Honda and Nissan -- higher legacy costs.
 
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RE: What this doesn‘t really show though is how much their military members receive in regards to other subsidies, ie rates for military housing, their version of Canex, various other allowances, any tax breaks etc. That would affect how much a Aussie soldier makes in "real" dollars.
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The same site but this lists the publications that outline pay, conditions and personnel policy. You‘ll have to do some investigating to get the information you seek.

http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dpe_site/categories/pay.htm

This would make a good report! If only I had more time.... :(
 
What this doesn‘t really show though is how much their military members receive in regards to other subsidies, ie rates for military housing, their version of Canex, various other allowances, any tax breaks etc. That would affect how much a Aussie soldier makes in "real" dollars
From memory, in Timor during the INTERFET mission, Aussie soldiers were earning $110(aust)a day in total allowances, tax-free... just about 3 times what we received. The Kiwis followed by adjusting their rates accordingly... we didn‘t. Now, in the CF, someone gets more money if they live in barracks or a hotel (TD allowance: $11/ day, tax-free)then when in the field (FOA: $16/ day, taxable)... go figure.
 
Tarnished Brass, even if it is only half true - made me sick
I‘m only about 3 chapters into the book, and I‘m already sick about it all. Not to mention a fair bit worried.

I know that all this occured about 7-8 years ago (though it had been occuring for a good decade or two beforehand), but I still have this grave concern that nothing‘s changed. We‘re still bloated with officers, far too many are "self-serving careerists", and therefore the end grunts get screwed over. Please tell me this isn‘t the case, or at least that things have improved slightly...
 
Man O‘ Man could I get stuck into this one...

As I am new here, let me introduce myself and give you a little of my background. I am an ex-Canadian Reservist with 22 years of service most of it at the rank of Sergeant and working as a transport NCO for several different Corps. 6 years ago, I moved down to Australia to follow a woman I now call wife (and "Maam"). She also is a Reservist (Nursing Officer).

So I think that I can give a unique view on this thread, as I have hands-on experience in both venues.

After joining the Army at 16, I wanted to continue serving when I moved here. The Canadians would not let me Parade when I was here (even voluntarily-unpaid), yet the Australian were keen to have me (and did let me "Parade" for a couple of years). When the move became permanent, I had to release and stop Parading here. It took me more than 4 years to get my citizenship and my eligibility to join the Defence Force (I was literally sworn in the day after I became eligible). If I was a "Regular", I could (in theory) have moved straight across and been given citizenship (so much for the "Total Force Concept").

Now I am a plug recruit who at 43 will have to do an Induction Course if I cannot get my Docs out of Ottawa. Mind you, they are willing to do "Recognition of Prior Learning".

I work in a unit that is a "Regional Force Surveillance Unit" (RFSU) that is classed as Infantry but operates more like a recce unit in that we are responsible for coastal defence in the remote Northwest of Australia. We are luckier than most Reserve units in that we are an operational unit and get better equipment than most - mind you we have an AO the size of 1/2 of Western Canada with about 50000 people and no grenade or heavy weapon range.

I believe that the Australians are better paid overall (a Private with his trades training gets between $36-42K depending on location/trade) which is quite respectable. As a recruit I get $54 a day - Tax Free - I think my wife as a LT get $85. Australians on a whole have a much different slant on benefits, entitlements and allowances. Due to the size of the country, companies like the one I work for, think nothing of flying in workers from the other side of the country and flying them home every few weeks. Culturally, they are far different in this regard.

I could go on-and-on regarding some of the differences, yet we have many similarities - more than we would with the Americans.

There are a number of "half truths" in the above quote - just this week the government is talking about standing down the F-111‘s. The Collins-Class subs they speak of are one of the last governments most embarrassing purchases due to the outrageous costs and poor performance. They have no "attack" helicopters that I am aware of - they have had Blackhawks and Seahawks for a number of years mind you.

I think that Australia is putting more money in "Operational units" - keeping them manned up and equipped (as I am part of one, it is hard for me to see how this hurts the other units). Personally, I think that the Canadians are better trained - I parade far less here, the NCOs are far older (at 43 I would still be considered a young Sgt, we have a 52 year-old Pte!).

Canada is considered the world peacekeeper - I believe that they have found their niche there and are comfortable with it.

They have little need for landing craft in today‘s world - that is why Australia is leasing high-speed ferries to the US.

Australia has had it own version of 9-11 with the bombing in Bali - it hits home so harshly because Bali is THE favourite holiday destination for Australians.

There... I have vented... sorry for the long diatribe, but I was bored here at work!
 
Thanks Adrian for the enlightening glimpse! Wow, if Pte‘s are considered to be respectably paid, then jr officers are practically paid like middle managers?

Very interesting to know that there ARE indeed OTHER countries who buy crappy hardware... I guess it‘s very easy to "ooooh and ahhhh" about other people‘s toys. Would it be wrong to say that Australia‘s procurement methods also focus on domestic industry off-sets?
 
Besides the gap in exchange rate, living costs are higher here (20-25%) but still at $40K you are still well above the poverty line.

The Australians are less focused on local procurement for intermediate level equipment (vehicles and the like) - they are blessed with a great shipbuilding industry and near zero air industry.

One idea of unique cost-cutting is the elimination of the elastic shock cord in the pant cuffs - they now issue the classic American-made boot bands as being more cost effective instead of having specially made olive shock cord made and installed in each pair.
 
Adrian, thanks for the information. It definately answered some of the questions that have been raised here since this thread opened, in regards to benefits, and more importantly the public‘s and government‘s attitude towards the military there.

A 43 year old Pte eh, maybe I should consider getting back in? Got room for another middle aged grunt down there?
 
I‘ve said it before and I‘ll say it again (Mr. Dorosh will again agree with me)

The Grass is always Greener on the Other Side of the Fence
 
Danjanou -

The attatude towards the military down here is incredible - a couple of years ago I marched in the Anzac Day parade with the North American contingent - there was 200,000 people along the parade route - you will get 10-15,000 people show up at the Dawn Service at 05:00.

In the small town where I am (14,000) we had 600 people show up for the Dawn Service - they are very pround of thier Anzac heritage - and it gets passed down to thier children! Children and grandchildren proudly wear thier relatives medals on Anzac Day.
 
Ah to dream of greener pastures, but alas too many commitments in this part of the world. Sorry Infanteer, that means you‘re stuck with me.

Adrian, planning a trip to your hemisphere next year, mainly Japan, Phillipines, and maybe Thailand, but if I end up going all that way I just might try and squeeze in another country. If I do, I‘ll let you treat me to some of that good Aussie beer.
 
The nice part of living where I do, is you can say "sure, come and visit" and only 1 in 100 will ever realy consider it when you look at where it is on the map.
 
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