I dislike RMC

[Halifax Tar]

This is one thing I don't get, even at war the majority of CAF will never be front line combat troops.

Its a lingering fall out of Unification. The Army/Combat Arms has dominated the CAF ever since.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I don't understand a leader who perpetuates a useless evolution just because they had to do it in years prior. ALP/ILP/SLP Im looking right you.

We see it with the AJSO/ATOC/AOC and CAFJOD conundrum on the officer side as well. There are folks that will never or probably should never be in a position where those learned skills are applied. Instead, it’s the credential we put in front of a promotion as a quality control measure, vice actually knowing someone's talent, strengths, limitations and experience.

It is a flawed mentality to think exhaustive DPs will make a strong leader stronger or a weak leader stronger.

Having said that much of our issue is that certain segments of our organization have a belief that the Army/Combat Arms way is the CAF way. We need to break this.

This is not a bug, but a feature of the "CAF" aspect of doctrine and training. Perhaps it's time to move away from the CAF Common training past the DP1 level? PLQ already has 3 different flavors depending on where and who is conducting the training, might as well formalize that switch.

As for RMC, it would fill the DP1 criteria for CAF Common training, so maybe it's better to look at it through that lense?

 

[Halifax Tar]

We see it with the AJSO/ATOC/AOC and CAFJOD conundrum on the officer side as well. There are folks that will never or probably should never be in a position where those learned skills are applied. Instead, it’s the credential we put in front of a promotion as a quality control measure, vice actually knowing someone's talent, strengths, limitations and experience.

It is a flawed mentality to think exhaustive DPs will make a strong leader stronger or a weak leader stronger.

I never understood the credential part to leadership coursing in the CAF and its relation to substantive ranks. Member A works X numbers of years and their trade has observed and deemed them as having the potential to preform at the next rank so they promote them. Then the CAF walks up and says hold up buck-a-roo We need to beast that cook or insert trade here _____________ to make sure they are up to snuff.

This is not a bug, but a feature of the "CAF" aspect of doctrine and training. Perhaps it's time to move away from the CAF Common training past the DP1 level? PLQ already has 3 different flavors depending on where and who is conducting the training, might as well formalize that switch.

As for RMC, it would fill the DP1 criteria for CAF Common training, so maybe it's better to look at it through that lense?

Its a big bug. And it should be squashed.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

donning flame resistance suit here now.

As NCM and worked with a lot of officers who were from the RMC and the Civilian Universities here is what I noticed and it might not be the case anymore as times have changed and it could still be a current thing.

A group officers get to a staff meeting, a lot of them look around to see who was at RMC and who was not. Ring Knockers.
The ring knockers always look for other ring knockers to see who was in what class etc.

They seemed to hold the opinion that the person who wears the ring knew more than those who did not wear the ring.

I worked for retired Colonel and he still worn his ring as a sign he was one of them even after he retired. The ring carries weight in some circles.

But getting back to the person who wrote this. No one likes or loves basic training when they doing basic training. No one loves first year of RMC or the second year most likely as you are the new guy on the block and know nothing. Once you complete it and look back at it wearing your coloured lens of the day, you will realize you did something very cool and you be happy you completed it.

I hated basic training and hated my combat leaders course even more. I saw very little of value in what was being taught on my CLC because it had no real use in the office or in my trade. The day a fin clerk has to dig a trench, and go on a section attack, we are screwed in more ways than I could count. But once I look back and realize what I started and completed I was proud of myself. Could care less what other people thought I did it and passed. You will look back at it all after grad day and you have your first day at flight school and say to yourself, wow that was easy compared to today's challenges at flight school.

 

[brihard]

The day a fin clerk has to dig a trench, and go on a section attack, we are screwed in more ways than I could count.

Man, I was really hoping if anyone could count that high it would be you guys.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Its a lingering fall out of Unification. The Army/Combat Arms has dominated the CAF ever since.

I think even for combat arms they always have more 'tail' than 'tooth'. But the alternative is no short/medium/long term logistic and equipment support.

And the more 'modernization' we do, and increase our reliance on technology and equipment the bigger the tail gets.

Some folks may be awesome under fire, while others may really excel at different roles, which should be a good thing as it means we can take in a wider variety of folks and find useful things for them to work on and contribute to actually achieving the goals. For some of the jobs where you fight through bureaucracy I think patience is probably the key asset above anything else, as otherwise you will lose your mind and try and beat the team like rented mules for things out of their control.

 

[CountDC]

Man, I was really hoping if anyone could count that high it would be you guys.

FSA's don't count, computers do it.

What's a Fin Clk? (ducking)

 

[OldSolduer]

Its a lingering fall out of Unification. The Army/Combat Arms has dominated the CAF ever since.

For us infantry types we always enjoyed the support arms trying to "out infantry" us.

We chuckled a lot.

 

[Halifax Tar]

For us infantry types we always enjoyed the support arms trying to "out infantry" us.

We chuckled a lot.

Ya I never got that either.

It's an inferiority complex that's unique to the Army, in my experience.

I'm not sure why people don't understand we're all just cogs in the wheel. No one is more important than the other.

 

[OldSolduer]

Ya I never got that either.

It's an inferiority complex that's unique to the Army, in my experience.

I'm not sure why people don't understand we're all just cogs in the wheel. No one is more important than the other.

You are correct sir!!!!

 

[Halifax Tar]

You are correct sir!!!!

2 Svc Bn. We out Army the Army.

 

[dapaterson]

Ya I never got that either.

It's an inferiority complex that's unique to the Army, in my experience.

I'm not sure why people don't understand we're all just cogs in the wheel. No one is more important than the other.

NWOs vs the world enter the chat...

 

[Lumber]

NWOs vs the world enter the chat...

"vs" would imply it's a competition.

 

[dapaterson]

They think it is...

 

[Lumber]

We see it with the AJSO/ATOC/AOC and CAFJOD conundrum on the officer side as well. There are folks that will never or probably should never be in a position where those learned skills are applied. Instead, it’s the credential we put in front of a promotion as a quality control measure, vice actually knowing someone's talent, strengths, limitations and experience.

It is a flawed mentality to think exhaustive DPs will make a strong leader stronger or a weak leader stronger.

This is not a bug, but a feature of the "CAF" aspect of doctrine and training. Perhaps it's time to move away from the CAF Common training past the DP1 level? PLQ already has 3 different flavors depending on where and who is conducting the training, might as well formalize that switch.

As for RMC, it would fill the DP1 criteria for CAF Common training, so maybe it's better to look at it through that lense?

Two things. 1. The Navy equivalent of AOC is the ORO course and its paired up with another course called the Command Development Course. While these generally are requirements for promotion to LCdr, they aren't just fluff; they teach tangible skills required by senior NWOs in areas of naval TTPs, RCN naval warfare doctrine, CAF risk management processes, resource management, planning, and most importantly, ship handling.

2. No one in the Navy has any sweet fucking clue what a DP is or what each level means or when we got to those levels.

 

[dapaterson]

No one in the Navy has any sweet fucking clue

Edited to get to the crux of the matter.

 

[Lumber]

donning flame resistance suit here now.

As NCM and worked with a lot of officers who were from the RMC and the Civilian Universities here is what I noticed and it might not be the case anymore as times have changed and it could still be a current thing.

A group officers get to a staff meeting, a lot of them look around to see who was at RMC and who was not. Ring Knockers.
The ring knockers always look for other ring knockers to see who was in what class etc.

They seemed to hold the opinion that the person who wears the ring knew more than those who did not wear the ring.

I worked for retired Colonel and he still worn his ring as a sign he was one of them even after he retired. The ring carries weight in some circles.

But getting back to the person who wrote this. No one likes or loves basic training when they doing basic training. No one loves first year of RMC or the second year most likely as you are the new guy on the block and know nothing. Once you complete it and look back at it wearing your coloured lens of the day, you will realize you did something very cool and you be happy you completed it.

I hated basic training and hated my combat leaders course even more. I saw very little of value in what was being taught on my CLC because it had no real use in the office or in my trade. The day a fin clerk has to dig a trench, and go on a section attack, we are screwed in more ways than I could count. But once I look back and realize what I started and completed I was proud of myself. Could care less what other people thought I did it and passed. You will look back at it all after grad day and you have your first day at flight school and say to yourself, wow that was easy compared to today's challenges at flight school.

Perhaps this is just me (and maybe @Humphrey Bogart can collaborate), but, at least among the current senior NWOs (ie below flags), having gone to RMC doesn't mean shit in terms of our opinion of each other and how we treat each other. When we get in a room a look around, we're looking for those we did our NWO training with, who we did our subbie tours with, who we deployed with, who was on our director course with, who was the one who got the cool shore posting
that you wanted and then ended up jsut being a lazy useless ass where you were motivated and would have done so much. None of that has anything to do with our entry scheme.

In fact, it's probably inverse; those of us who went to RMC don't even really remember that we went to rmc when interacting with the rest of the officers, but once a DEO/Civi-u ROTP finds out we are ring knockers, well woa hoe then the chirping starts.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

This is usually my response when people ask where I did my undergrad:

 

[brihard]

Perhaps this is just me (and maybe @Humphrey Bogart can collaborate), but, at least among the current senior NWOs (ie below flags), having gone to RMC doesn't mean shit in terms of our opinion of each other and how we treat each other. When we get in a room a look around, we're looking for those we did our NWO training with, who we did our subbie tours with, who we deployed with, who was on our director course with, who was the one who got the cool shore posting
that you wanted and then ended up jsut being a lazy useless ass where you were motivated and would have done so much. None of that has anything to do with our entry scheme.

In fact, it's probably inverse; those of us who went to RMC don't even really remember that we went to rmc when interacting with the rest of the officers, but once a DEO/Civi-u ROTP finds out we are ring knockers, well woa hoe then the chirping starts.

Perhaps fair to say that earlier on in a career, one has less of a professional community reputation to go on, and so proxies like shared academic hardship and networks might sub int for a time?

 

[FSTO]

DEO/Civi-u ROTP finds out we are ring knockers, well woa hoe then the chirping starts.

Well I get to say that I graduated from the No. 1 Liberal Arts University in Western Manitoba! Top that Ring Knocker!