If you haven't been to Afghanistan shut up.

[mariomike]

I've hung around with a few paramedics over the past year, and its funny how I NEVER hear them going on about how they should be seen as heros, given special privileges or any other crap like that.  Yet, they save lives on a daily basis in some pretty tough conditions without the benefit of being armed to the teeth.

From what I remember of it, there weren't any heros, and there weren't any cowards. They were just regular guys.

 

[brihard]

The whole "If you weren't there STFU" thin has mostly seemed to me to be dudes trying to pretend that playing a tactical role on the ground - #2 Rifleman or what have you - gave them some sort of strategic insight ad to what strategic role our contribution played, or in what way The War (yes, I speak of it in the past tense- pardon my own hubris) played in our national interest. I learned more about our involvement in Afghanistan in my year of workup training by cracking a dozen odd books than I did in my time on the ground. Conversely, in my six months sucking sand I did a pretty decent job as a troop, and learned things I could never learn academically.

But when another Canadian - a creature as politically, and potentially strategically aware ad you or I - say "well I think..." I will NEVER tell them "shut the f*** up, you weren't there." My experience was specific and nuanced enough than honesty compels me to recognize my own arcs, and where my actual *knowledge* ends.

And when all is said and done, I carry my rifle at behest of the state, on behalf of the citizen. The citizen I serve is entitled to an opinion, and it's as likely to be informed as mine.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I was under the impression WOG was actually "Worn Out Grunts"

I think the original term was derogatory, and referred to "Wily Oriental Gentleman".

 

[cupper]

I think the original term was derogatory, and referred to "Wily Oriental Gentleman".

You are correct.

From Merriam Webster:

chiefly British usually disparaging
: a dark-skinned foreigner; especially : one from the Middle East or Far East
perhaps short for golliwog
First Known Use: circa 1929

and from Urban Dictionary

{ /wäg/ (n.) offensive slang. 1925-30, from 'Golliwogg': a 19th century blackface doll; or alternately, an acronym of '(W)orthy (O)riental (G)entleman' }

 

[Journeyman]

The best part is the look on their face when I tell them I was in The RCR for 5 years.

Was it this look- :facepalm: ?  Or this look- : ?

...when you apparently believe you're entitled to this look-  :bowdown:


I'm afraid, I can't get past this look though-  :boring:

 

[Sythen]

Was it this look- :facepalm: ?  Or this look- : ?

...when you apparently believe you're entitled to this look-  :bowdown:


I'm afraid, I can't get past this look though-  :boring:

Can't tell if trolling or just stupid? How about the, 'oh shit I just got caught Walting!' look?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If anyone cared to search, they'd realise that we've been through all this before.

Let's give others the strength of conviction, and see where it lead them?

Hopefully, down the road where the can complain\ boast, "We are the Press".

The press doesn't make your rules, or ours' or the governments.

Time to hang them

 

[Sythen]

If anyone cared to search, they'd realise that we've been through all this before.

Let's give others the strength of conviction, and see where it lead them?

Hopefully, down the road where the can complain\ boast, "We are the Press".

The press doesn't make your rules, or ours' or the governments.

Time to hang them

erm.. Had a bit to drink?  ;D Or are you quoting something?

 

[exabedtech]

Funny how that Air of Superiority gets into some of the troops.  Was likely our major downfall in the Cdn AB Regt.  Took years of 'deprogramming' for me to realize that just because a person hadn't jumped full equipment at night from 800' that they aren't automatically inferior.  I see that same attitude in these posts when talking about the support trades.  I was combat arms for 14 years, support trades for another 7 and can say with complete certainty that the level of dedication, professional competence, and risk are no different.

Pride can be good or evil, depends how you use it.  If you're a combat arms guy who thinks you're somehow superior to a support trades guy, you likely have some growing up to do.  I know because I did.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

erm.. Had a bit to drink?  ;D Or are you quoting something?

Neither.

Just trying to stop the useless reposting of already said items.

Sorry if you have have trouble understanding. Not my problem.

I'd prefer usefull discussion where we hadn't been before, rather than useless, already gone over history.

Saves me from bringing out the 'Ban Hammer' and arbitrarily stiffling things.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Those good old days that never existed you mean? I am sure, like today, there are those who would politely correct false information.. But just as today, there were those with less patience who said heck with it, you have no idea what you're talking about and I refuse to argue with you so stfu.

If you get told that you weren't OTW so stfu a lot Vern, it probably means you need to stay inside your lane. I have met FAR more WOGs trying to tell me what it was "really like in Afghanistan" or "I wouldn't have acted like that if I were in his/her position" than I've met Combat Arms who have said "You weren't OTW - STFU/You're useless". Its awesome when I talk to uniformed members with LOG on their slip on telling me all about Afghanistan, now that I am a civvy. The best part is the look on their face when I tell them I was in The RCR for 5 years.

I think its unprofessional to try to talk down to others because they don't act like you believe they should. Its funny though to try to harken back to some time when everyone in the CF was like some movie version of what soldiers should be. This was never the case, and never will be the case.

So how do you deal with those that were the first into Kabul? No wire, no defined areas of Ops, just one big recce for the rest of the follow on people.

I'm sure those that lost their lives there would fit your narrow minded view of things.

Even though the same could have happened to anyone travelling those same routes.

Khandahar, and it's resulting AORs, wasn't the only place the war happened.

There were tough people in Afghanistan, for years, before Khandahar even happened.

And lots weren't infantry or even Cbt Arms.

I suppose many would assume that anyone that didn't have that simple fact figured out should take their own advice and Shut the Fuck Up.

 

[Sythen]

So how do you deal with those that were the first into Kabul? No wire, no defined areas of Ops, just one big recce for the rest of the follow on people.

I'm sure those that lost their lives there would fit your narrow minded view of things.

Even though the same could have happened to anyone travelling those same routes.

Khandahar, and it's resulting AORs, wasn't the only place the war happened.

There were tough people in Afghanistan, for years, before Khandahar even happened.

And lots weren't infantry or even Cbt Arms.

I suppose many would assume that anyone that didn't have that simple fact figured out should take their own advice and Shut the frig Up.

: ok if you say so.

 

[Scott]

The fact that paramedics were brought up lends light to a good point: this shit happens everywhere.

That same person who does the whole ''STFU, you haven't been to Afghanistan'' is likely in for a rude awakening when he gets his job as a labourer in the oilsands, or as a roughneck on one of the rigs, and is told, ''STFU, you haven't...'' and then their, ''But I have been to Afghanistan and...'' retort will garner them a, ''Thanks for that, but so fucking what does that have to do with this?''

Point is, this sort of shit happens everywhere. I have seen it from medics, cops, firefighters, roughnecks, diamond drillers, pilots, and so on.

I have also seen it from teachers, nurses, doctors, engineers, power linemen, and so forth.

The people that perpetuate this sort of shit, well, I ingore them. Just the same as I ignore firefighters or medics or teachers who blab about how tough shit was at blah, blah, blah. Someday they'll realize that they bore others and look like a twat. The dudes that have to tell others to STFU will be seen as general pricks and not very good teachers of the next generation, the Walts will be seen as Walts.

I firmly recall coming back from my first fire and sitting around with the other guys afterward having a beer. One or two of them were asking me how it had felt and I was doing my level best to describe this when an older member started calling it down and saying that us young guys would never know what it was like to fight ''real'' fires and whatnot. I'll admit that it was a bit offputting - for about a minute until another older fellow told me to just nevermind that sort of trash talk. I learned a lot from that. You know what I learned from that older, mealy mouthed guy? Nothing. Except how I was NOT going to act.

Correcting misconceptions is one thing. Being a dick is another.

 

[bridges]

And when all is said and done, I carry my rifle at behest of the state, on behalf of the citizen. The citizen I serve is entitled to an opinion, and it's as likely to be informed as mine.

Sums it up nicely - thank you.    :nod:

 

[dogger1936]

We had a very Snr NCO at the mess tell us if we were gonna argue with him (over a sports game none the less) "We best get some sand on our boot's".

I guess if you have a tour on a satellite base like this; you can get away with that statement for a while...until he mouthed off to another WO and myself.

We laughed we cried; the WO wrote an apology in lieu of charges.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I think the original term was derogatory, and referred to "Wily Oriental Gentleman".

My wife is British.  She hates the term and tells me that it is the equilivent of calling an African Canadian a Ni**er when directed at those persons originating from the Middle East.  Not kind, not well meant and by today's standards an insult.  Period.

 

[ArmyRick]

I remember when I first joined the army more than 20 years ago.

"You haven't been to germany..."
"You haven't been to Cypres..."
"You haven't been to Yugo/Croatia/Bosnia..."

When do this crap stop? Seriously? What happens in ten years time if the CF goes to some super shit hole that makes Afghanistan look like a vacation? Does that mean they get the right to do this same sort of nonsense.

The TRUE proffessional doesn't have to mouth off, his actions are his words....

The fact is, be it Cypes, Germany, Croatia, East Timor, Somalia, Afghanistan, etc, etc, is that those who put on the uniform and then deployed were WILLING to put themselves in harm's way, even if Harm came no where nears them.

Enough said?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think the difference is its the first real sustained combat mission the Canadian Army has endured sense the Korean War. 

Having said that you are right ArmyRick

The TRUE proffessional doesn't have to mouth off, his actions are his words....

very true...

 

[dogger1936]

I also believe any combat arms soldier should be very proud of the role they played.

Having said that you have a capbadge and medals that should do the talking for you.

People who require telling stories usually are not proud of their role, their capbadge, and decorations.

 

[2ndChoiceName]

Being a student who is not in the military (yet!), I try to read everything I can get my hands on about the military, and about the effects of combat/deployment on a soldier (Sebastien Junger's War, Fifteen Days, etc.). It is by no means a substitute for actual experience, but I get annoyed when I hear some of my fellow students talking about what they think war is like because they watched Black Hawk Down, and I try to correct them when I can. I kind of feel like it is my responsibility to inform them otherwise, but from what I'm reading here, now I feel like kind of a D-Bag. Would that fall under the "If you haven't been to Afghanistan shut up." mentality?