"I'm a Sergeant" - said the Cadet

[jak3_dude]

Okay wow, just noticed after posting this is the wrong section, and I can't delete my own threads, can a mod please move this to the appropriate board or delete it? Thank you in advance.


Okay, so about a month ago (1 month - 1 day) at the Remembrance Day parade we were forming up, and as usual there were other units with us, some Highlanders, police, and cadets.

So one of the cadets ranks wasn't in line with the rest of ours and buddy from my section taps one of the cadets on the shoulders and points it out to him by going "Hey, you guys are not in line" wanting to correct the problem before it's noticed by anyone else.  Well apparently the cadet's shoulder he tapped on was a Sergeant and he turns around, makes this fact clear and tries to jack up buddy for not using his rank.

It got sorted out, but I thought this was rather funny.

I don't know if the cadet got in trouble or what afterward but it did get me thinking about whether he was justified in trying to jack up buddy for this, after all he was trying to keep banter down to a minimum to fix a problem and couldn't see the cadet's rank since he had his back facing him.

So here's my question for you forum:

If you were in the army (Reg Force or Reserves; army, navy or air force) and a cadet who holds a higher relative ranking tries to jack you up, what would you do (it can be a joke response or what you actually would do)?  And what is the proper way to handle this while we're at it?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I don't know about jacking up a kid in the cadets.  I don't think I'd do it.  I'd probably call him *son* or something, and take a quick look around for his/her CIC Officer.  Kindly explain what happened...let the cadet CoC deal with it.

On another note, back a few years ago, myself and a buddy (both Sgts at the time) walked out of the CANEX in Gagetown to see a WO from an affiliated Cadet Corps standing there.  We walked over and called him "WO" and asked him what he was doing in Gagetown, was he here to train on tanks?  No he said.  Jump out of the helicopters?  No he said.  We said "well you sure look like a mean lean fighting machine to us".  After asking him if we'd be seeing him in the Mess tonight for a pitcher of beer (to which he said "ummm, I don't think I can do that ) we came to attention, asked him permission to carry on, and marched away when he *ordered* us to move along.

I don't think I ever saw a kid with a bigger smile on his face when we turned around before jumping in the car and driving away...all 3 feet of him  8).  I say let kids be kids...they grow up fast enough as it is.  Even better if you can do something that makes them smile like their face is going to split in two.

 

[Strike]

I remember a summer in Valcartier on OJT as an officer cadet.

I was coming out of the CANEX when the Base SM walks by and snaps a salute.

"SM," says I, "what's with the salute?  I don't have a commission yet."

He replied, "Anyone who is willing to deal with 4 years of BS in order to become a commissioned officer deserves to be saluted."

That made my day.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Hmm... I once was a cadet, and never in my wildest dreams would I presume to jack up someone actually in the forces, whether they be regs or reserve.

A childrens club and a profession are two different things. I do hope the young cadet was reminded of this.

My 'proper way of handling this' would have been to tell the cadet to get a life and wind his neck in, and remember his place in this world.

 

[Sf2]

sorry, but a cadet rank means absolutely nothing.

 

[CallOfDuty]

  You know, I have no problems with cadets, and will admit I don't know too much about them.  But one thing I don't like is the fact that they are tied so close to the military.  Myself as a reg force member, whether I'm a Sgt, corporal, private or whatever should never ever have to salute a CIC officer. 
  The people I work with say oh it's no big deal...just give the rank the respect it deserves and move on.  Yeah they have a comission scroll ( why, I don't know).....but did they have to go to university to get it first?  No.  I belive the prerequisite to be a CIC officer is to have graduated high school, and have have no criminal record.  Those are some high standards huh?
  I know a couple of guys who are reg force now, but used to be CIC captains.  These are people I wouldn't trust for the life of me.  Really screwed up kinds of guys.
    Anyway thats my little rant.  Perhaps I'm just being judgemental from my few experiences .....but I just see them as babysitters and not officers.
Cheers

 

[mellian]

Well, they are CADETS. As in, Cadet LAC, Cadet Corporal, Cadet Sergeant, etc. Just need to make that clear when dealing with or encountering an Air Cadet.

What I am curious about is Officers running the cadets as they wear the same uniforms as those in the Regular and Reserve CF, they just do not have the training and commission. It can get confusing, especially in Ottawa where there is a lot DND folks.

I remember when my mother was an officer in the Naval Cadets which my brother was part of, got annoying when I had to salute her at certain functions and events like Remembrance Day.

 

[xena]

COD, you admit that you know little of the cadets, and that you're Reg F.

You should then know that when you salute, what you're saluting is not the officer, but the Queen who (through whatever administrative error) granted that officer their commission.  Period.  It has absolutely nothing to do with your assessment of their worth as a leader, or validity of holding that commission.

While I agree with you that cadets seem to be merely "Boy Scouts on Steroids", and that I too am kinda puzzled about why specifically their adult leaders need a Queen's commission, while regular Boy Scouts do not, I seem to hold that exact same commission in slightly higher regard.  That's because I respect the institution that grants it - not necessarily it's recipients.

Not too surprisingly, I know some Reg F members that I wouldn't want to share a slit trench with because they're dangerously stupid, and some of those are Commissioned Reg Force Officers too!  But, I am very glad to admit that they are the exception rather than the rule, and honestly are fairly rare in the CF.  To put it simply, every group has it's "bottom rung" members, including cadets, Reserves and Reg Force.

To focus solely on criticising the CIC officers does them a disservice.

But, back to the topic at hand, it should be clear that a rank (any rank!) is only effective within the organization that grants that rank.  A cadet Serjeant cannot issue an order to a military Corporal, any more than that same military Corporal could issue an order to an RCMP Constable!

Oh, and mellian, CIC Officers definitely DO have a Queen's Commission.  But, true, not the same training - unless they're retired Officers from the Reg F or Reserves.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Easy way to id a CIC officer, they would not have any Brigade Patches on their DEU's and the shoulder titles would say CIC.

 

[Neill McKay]

  You know, I have no problems with cadets, and will admit I don't know too much about them.  But one thing I don't like is the fact that they are tied so close to the military.  Myself as a reg force member, whether I'm a Sgt, corporal, private or whatever should never ever have to salute a CIC officer.

Don't make life any harder for yourself than it has to be.  You salute all commissioned officers, whether they're at the pointy end or career staff weenies.  CIC officers are commissioned officers in the Reserve Force.

The people I work with say oh it's no big deal...just give the rank the respect it deserves and move on.  Yeah they have a comission scroll ( why, I don't know).....

Because CIC officers, like other officers, are vested with a particular level or responsibility that is consistent with commissioned rank in the CF.  Some CIC officers command units with a handful of other CF members, tens of thousands of dollars of Crown and non-public property, and the safety of 50 youth on their heads.  A few command establishments the size of a small base during the summer.  Some have charge of vessels in excess of a hundred tons at sea.  The role of a CIC officer is much more diverse than you realize.

but did they have to go to university to get it first?  No.  I belive the prerequisite to be a CIC officer is to have graduated high school, and have have no criminal record.  Those are some high standards huh?

Do some reading instead of relying on hearsay.  It takes more than that.

How do you feel about saluting officers who CFR'd and haven't been to university?

  I know a couple of guys who are reg force now, but used to be CIC captains.  These are people I wouldn't trust for the life of me.  Really screwed up kinds of guys.

So you know two screwed up reg force officers.

Do you imagine that they were perfectly normal people until the CIC screwed them up?  Or did the reg force screw them up?  Or were they already screw-ups but still got into the reg force?  In any case, that's a total non-argument.

Anyway thats my little rant.  Perhaps I'm just being judgemental from my few experiences .....but I just see them as babysitters and not officers.
Cheers

I know some people who I see as drivers and not soldiers.

Not really, but do you see how easy it is to play that game?  Pick your trade: Musicians, RMS Clerks, Training Development officers?  Everyone has a role to play in the CF, and it's not always to close with and destroy the enemy.  Take some time to learn about the CIC rather than relying on the uninformed opinions of others.  You might find a second career for yourself when your ref force days are over -- many have.

Easy way to id a CIC officer, they would not have any Brigade Patches on their DEU's and the shoulder titles would say CIC.

That's only true for army officers, who wear CIC shoulder titles because the CIC is a branch and army pers wear branch or regimental shoulder titles.  Naval and air force CIC officers wear Canada shoulder titles, just as all other naval and air force officers do.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Easy way to id a CIC officer, they would not have any Brigade Patches on their DEU's and the shoulder titles would say CIC.

They also are the only ones that wear those cap badges that look like those maple cookies.

Man those are good cookies!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well, they are CADETS. As in, Cadet LAC, Cadet Corporal, Cadet Sergeant, etc. Just need to make that clear when dealing with or encountering an Air Cadet.

What about Army or Navy cadets?

What I am curious about is Officers running the cadets as they wear the same uniforms as those in the Regular and Reserve CF, they just do not have the training and commission. It can get confusing, especially in Ottawa where there is a lot DND folks.

I believe N McKay answered that one for you.  Maybe you should NOT post things you don't know for certain are facts?  Just an idea.  Helps you keep your foot out of your mouth and all that...

 

[Nfld Sapper]

That's only true for army officers, who wear CIC shoulder titles because the CIC is a branch and army pers wear branch or regimental shoulder titles.  Naval and air force CIC officers wear Canada shoulder titles, just as all other naval and air force officers do.

Thanks forgot about that..... guess I should take off my army blinders  ;D

But as EITS said just by looking at the cap brass/badge you should be able to id them......

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Just to kill any debate on CIC Officers.  I'll post some info from OPME DCE 001 - Defence Management (version 8, if anyone has more current stuff, please correct me).

DCE 001, Lesson 9 - The Reserve Force

9.1 Organization

The National Defence Act (NDA) states that the Canadian Forces consist of one Service composed of the Regular Force, the Reserve Force, and when established by the Governor-in-Council, the Special Force.

9.1.1 Composition of the Reserve Force

The NDA further states that the Reserve Force is composed of members who are enrolled for other than continuing, full-time military service when not on active service. In accordance with QR&O 2.034, the Reserve Force is composed of the following four sub-components:
• Primary Reserve;
• Supplementary Reserve;
• Cadet Instructors Cadre; and
• Canadian Rangers.

9.1.3 Chief of Reserves and Cadets

The Chief of Reserves and Cadets Division (C Res and Cdts) is a VCDS organization tasked to provide advice to the CDS (through VCDS) and, where mandated, direction on Reserve Force matters. The C Res and Cdts Division is composed of three Directorates: Director Reserves (http://www.vcds.dnd.ca/dres/org/intro_e.asp), Director Cadets, and the Executive Director of the Canadian Forces Liaison Council. In addition to the provision of advice on Reserve Force matters, C Res and Cdts delivers the Canadian Cadet Program, the Junior Canadian Ranger Program, and the Employer Support Program.

9.2 Sub-Components of the Reserve Force
Each of the four sub-components of the Reserve Force has a different role, as expressed in the applicable CFAOs. The following is a brief synopsis of each sub-component.

9.2.3 Cadet Instructor Cadre

Role of the Cadet Instructor Cadre
The Cadet Instructor Cadre (CIC) consists of over 5500 officers who have undertaken, by the terms of their enrolment, to perform such military duty and training as may be required of them, but whose primary duty is to fulfil a youth training function in the supervision, administration, and training of cadets.

Composition and Organization
The Cadet Instructor Cadre (CIC) is a sub-component of the Reserve Force. CIC officers are obliged to serve only when placed on active service by the Governor in Council or when called out in an emergency. CIC officers may be required to undergo annual training. The Cadet Instructors Cadre is organized into regions, each commanded by a Regional Commander. The officers in each Region are attached to the various Cadet Corps within that region and promotion to rank beyond the rank of Captain for CIC officers is based on the size of the Cadet Corps to which they are attached. The Regional Commanders have the responsibility of a Commanding Officer within their Region with respect to CIC officers. CIC officers are currently limited to 23 days of Class A Reserve Service in support of the Canadian Cadet Program. However, they may also be employed on Class B at a cadet summer training camp or on individual training, or on Class B Annotated "A" (CL B "A") (365-day, full-time service) in support of the Canadia Cadet Program at a National or Regional Headquarters. CIC officers may only perform Reserve Service outside of the Canadian Cadet Program with the concurrence of Director General Reserves and Cadets (DGRC).
Over 60,000 girls and boys in the Cadet Program benefit from the training given or organized by some 1100 cadet corps or squadrons, 610 cadet bands, 28 summer camps, and gliding, sailing and land training schools and centres located across the country.

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Now...I don't know about anybody else but...the building next to the one I work in houses the RCSU (Atlantic) folks.  I see them all at the gym.  I see them at Tims.  In fact I see them all over the Wing.  Some of them are true CIC officers, having only done CIC.  Some of them are wearing jump wings, tour ribbons, etc on their 3Bs because they are ex-Reg Force, etc.  Not all CIC officers have been nothing but CIC.  The ex-RCR Capt who is a Army type CIC I speak to some at the gym at noonhour is certainly deserving of the compliments I pay him when I see him outside the gym. 

Despite all that, we are saluting/paying compliments to the Queen's commission, as I recall.  In the end, its not like any of us in the Reg Force are suddenly going to fall under the command of some say, Navy CIC officer who for some reason has been put in charge of a coy of troops who have to attack some enemy position, now is it?

Based on the role of the CICs are outlined above in yellow, I think the CF is making sure it recruits people who have the trg and abilities for that role (to fulfil a youth training function in the supervision, administration, and training of cadets).

 

[Scott]

And that's this locked. It's been done here before in many different forms and always ends up sounding like a toilet flushed.

Thanks for the patience EITS and N MacKay for giving the straight dope and not getting drawn into what always becomes a huge pissing match.

CIC are comissioned officers in the CF and you will salute them or face the consequences, despite your personal feelings which don't matter a whole hell of a lot.

Scott
Army.ca Staff