Incentive Pay Category For Cadets Joining The CF

[Neill McKay]

I've read the past year's post on this subject and someone once asked the question if the rank of warrant officer here is in reference to the army cadet rank and if so, what would be the equivalent air and sea cadet rank for the purpose of this policy.

The equivalent sea and air cadet ranks to warrant officer are petty officer first class and flight sergeant. 

 

[littlelizzard]

This is scary in it's own right. I was a cadet for 5 years, and was only moderately more qualified to be there (basic training) than some of my peers. There are still MANY things that one learns on their Basic Course that is not covered in Cadets. The biggest things that will give a Cadet a leg up are simply the rank familiarisation and the drill and ceremonial.

I am also fully qualified to say that the Cadets of today, are NOT the Cadets of 14 years ago........As the Cadets when I was in, were not the Cadets of generations previous to us.

Not to say that they're not good at what they do, just that they are different than they used to be. The whole Cadet movement is different, with different aims. It is FAR less military now, than at any time in the past.

If I was standing in front of you right now we would be doing the HIGH FIVE STEP , you are so right about this one! Cheers

 

[geo]

Cadets of today have been "demilitarized" because the parents of today have put pressure on the cadet movement & the military to be just that.  Not really the Cadets or the CICs fault - it's just where "society" is taking them.

 

[Neill McKay]

Cadets of today have been "demilitarized" because the parents of today have put pressure on the cadet movement & the military to be just that.  Not really the Cadets or the CICs fault - it's just where "society" is taking them.

In what forum have you seen this pressure?

 

[gaspasser]

Many moons ago, in the before time, I asked higher to look into my 6 years as a cadet and 3 years in the reserves.  The answer I got back in those days was...2 years and 243 days added towards my CD ! Plus I had to pay back 2 years and 243 days worth of pension.  But like I was told by some good friends before I went to Cornwallis, DON'T tell anyone that you were in cadet or the reserves, the DS know and don't want any know-it-alls around. Your experience will speak for itself in kit, dress, drill and deportment. 
I guess times have changed... ^-^

 

[armyvern]

Many moons ago, in the before time, I asked higher to look into my 6 years as a cadet and 3 years in the reserves.  The answer I got back in those days was...2 years and 243 days added towards my CD ! Plus I had to pay back 2 years and 243 days worth of pension.  But like I was told by some good friends before I went to Cornwallis, DON'T tell anyone that you were in cadet or the reserves, the DS know and don't want any know-it-alls around. Your experience will speak for itself in kit, dress, drill and deportment. 
I guess times have changed... ^-^

I guarantee you that most of that time credited came from your ResF time ... NOT your cadet time.

The max a cadet could be credited with was 180 days towards PAY, not promotion and NOT pension, and that was provided the cadet had advanced courses and time as an instructor.

When I joined, I had 6 years in Army Cadets. I had the CLI Course, the Athletic Leadership Course (from Borden), and the Artic Indoctrination Course (Run by staff from the CAR; Valcartier {first 3 weeks} with a further 4 weeks spent in Ayuktuk National Park, Nunavut 'surviving'). I spent the last two years of my "cadet time" employed as PERI staff at Camp Argonaut. I was also a "Gold Star with Wreath". All of these factors were considered and my file shipped off to Borden for determination.

I was credited with 6 months advance towards pay, but not promotion (cadet time does not count towards promotions). NO pension was paidback for this 6 months as cadet time is NOT, nor has it ever been, pensionable service.

I bet, if you check your file ... you'll see that your credited time (pension etc) came from your ResF service. You may have asked your CoC to look into your cadet time and your ResF time, but I'll guarantee that if you paid back 243 days worth of pension - that none of those 243 days were credited to you for "cadet time" - rather it seems that your ResF time (3 years) was worth 243 days. If someone screwed up and DID credit you with cadet time towards pension ... be prepared for an audit upon your release - it just doesn't count - cadets are not, never have been, members of the CF.

 

[gwp]

I guarantee you that most of that time credited came from your ResF time ... NOT your cadet time.

Actually all of the time credited towards the CD was PRes time.  Only time served as a member of the CF or Honorary is credited towards the CD.

The max a cadet could be credited with was 180 days towards PAY, not promotion and NOT pension, and that was provided the cadet had advanced courses and time as an instructor.

The value of the additional pay is pensionable earnings so whatever the difference between the two levels of pay - not a large amount.  The 243 days of pension buy back is PRes time. It is only is affected in as much as the value of the earnings for the period was marginally greater had you not  been a cadet (the difference in the pay grade for the applicable period.)  Not a major factor.

cadets are not, never have been, members of the CF.

Absolutely without question. 

 

[gaspasser]

Actually I wasn't ranting about lack of time towards anything from my cadet days.  I did not get time towards pay from cadets. The pension days were from PRes and I ain't complaining about that either.  I was just stating a few facts.  If you ask me, most of Cornwallis and Border was a waste of time for me.  Not meaning to sound arrogant, but I really didn't learn anything in Cornhollis and I was more qual'd up than my Crse Sgt on my threes.  I mostly kept other students on the road.  Many have asked why I didn't get the Direct Entry in those days. Well, you needed your 3's {read 5's} and your JLC.  The summer I joined was the summer the clerk had me scheduled for both...yeup, I was miffed.
My rant....off.

 

[armyvern]

Actually all of the time credited towards the CD was PRes time.  Only time served as a member of the CF or Honorary is credited towards the CD.

The value of the additional pay is pensionable earnings so whatever the difference between the two levels of pay - not a large amount.  The 243 days of pension buy back is PRes time. It is only is affected in as much as the value of the earnings for the period was marginally greater had you not  been a cadet (the difference in the pay grade for the applicable period.)  Not a major factor.
Absolutely without question. 

I absolutely agree.

My response was as a result of his comment:

I asked higher to look into my 6 years as a cadet and 3 years in the reserves.  The answer I got back in those days was...2 years and 243 days added towards my CD ! Plus I had to pay back 2 years and 243 days worth of pension.

He does not differentiate in his statement that the 243 all came from his ResF time, not his cadet time. That's why I was pointing out that ALL of his time towards promotion and pension should have been ResF time; that cadet time ONLY counted towards pay.

And that, if someone screwed up and DID credit any of his cadet time towards anything BUT the pay ... he should be prepared for an audit. And regarding the pension differential between the two - (6 months credited towards pay in my case) based upon cadet experience will only witness my pensionable earnings seeing me go from a Pte IPC 1 six months earlier than anyone else --- but that's as a member of the RegF. At the 322 bucks I was making every two weeks way back then ... I'm quite sure the pension system can handle it.

He's now clarified that he did not mean to infer that any part of his 6 years cadet time was credited towards anything.

 

[gaspasser]

AV, agreed.  I was pointing out that I DID NOT get anything for cadet time and I'm kind of PO'd that some are now getting something for it and the fact that I had to pay back the 2 years and 243 days of pension to qualify for the extra time towards my CD.
End 
 

 

[Neill McKay]

cadets are not, never have been, members of the CF.

There is a small exception to this in that staff cadets at the CSTCs were, once upon a time, enroled as reservists for the duration of their contracts.  It's been quite a while now since that was done.

 

[Michael OLeary]

AV, agreed.  I was pointing out that I DID NOT get anything for cadet time and I'm kind of PO'd that some are now getting something for it and the fact that I had to pay back the 2 years and 243 days of pension to qualify for the extra time towards my CD.
End 

You "purchase" pensionable time towards your pension, not towards your CD.

 

[geo]

In what forum have you seen this pressure?

Not in a forum.... Was a member of a sponsoring committee

If there wasn't any pressure, wouldn't the movement still be more soldierly than it is ?

 

[gwp]

Not in a forum.... Was a member of a sponsoring committee If there wasn't any pressure, wouldn't the movement still be more soldierly than it is ?

The shift in the cadet program began during the same period as North America began shifting towards a more small "l" liberal society.  It is evident in the evolution of the aim of the cadet program that remains unchanged from when it was last revised in the 1970's. 

QR and O Army Cadets 1956 states the aim of Royal Canadian Army Cadets as:

To provide the youth of Canada with a sound knowledge of "military fundamentals" based on leadership, patriotism, and good citizenship and founding on the premis that "the first duty of a free citizen is to be prepared to defend his country.

In 1962 faced with declined enrollment as the result of societal changes and anti-war sentiment driven by Vietnam the aim of Army Cadets was revised by QR&O Amendement List #5 Feb. 1, 1962:

The aim of the Army Cadet Organization is to provide army cadets with a sound knowledge of military fundamentals based on the qualities of leadeshiop, patriotism and good citizenship.

The 1995 Cheif Review Services Report on the Cadet Program reports: In 1966, at the time of a Deputy Cheif Reserves study on the RC Sea Army Air Cadets, the three cadet organizations each had a different aim as follows:

Sea Cadets: To give Sea Cadets training in seamanship and other associated subjects; such other training as will develop in them patriotism and other qualities of good citizenship; and to help Sea Cadets who wish to make the sea their career, achieve that ambition.

Air Cadets: To encourage Air Cadets to develop attributes of good citizenship; to stimulate in Air Cadets an itnerest in aviation and space technology; and to help Air Cadets develop a high standard of physical fitness, mental alertness and discipline. 

Army Cadets: As noted from 1962.

The 1966 study recommended standardization of the cadet training program, and a single aim for all three cadet organizations as follows:

To develop in cadets qualities of good citizenship, leadership and patriotism; to promote thier interest in the sea, land or air environments as appropriate; and to develop in them a high standard of physical fitness, mental alertness and discipline through service training.

Between 1966 and unification, the need for a combined aim for a single cadet movement was accepted, and the aim statement evolved into its current form as stated in QR (Cadets) 2.03

To develop in youth the attributes of good citizehsip and leadershpl promote physical fitness; and stumulate the interest of youth in the sea, land, and air activities of the CF.

In addition to the combined aim of the CCO, the Sea Cadets and the Air Cadets developed supplemental aims:

Help sea cadets who wish to make the sea thier career achieve that ambition

To promote continuing education, encourage among young people a practical interest in aeronautics and assist those intending to pursue a career in the field of aviation.

In all cases the statement is described as a single aim. 

The unified aim of the program has not changed in 40 plus years it has been re-examined and recently interpreted and supported in a CATO 11-03 titled Cadet Program Mandate.

Currently, there is some early evidence of enrollment shyness that may be driven by a missunderstanding of the program at a time where there is some public anti-war commentary particularly in Central Canada.  The aim of the program is not going to be revised.  It describes what the program is about which is -- young people that understand the concept of citizenship, have leadership ability, are modestly physically fit and have in interest in the sea, land, and air activities of their Canadian Forces.   Now that is something that every Canadian should aspire to. 

 

[gwp]

AV, agreed.  I was pointing out that I DID NOT get anything for cadet time and I'm kind of PO'd that some are now getting something for it and the fact that I had to pay back the 2 years and 243 days of pension to qualify for the extra time towards my CD.

Huh?   CD eligibility has nothing to do with pension.  CD eligibility is honourable time served ... 4,373 days to be awarded the medal 12 years plus 3 leap days RegF, Res, regardless of how many days are paid --- and time served as a honorary appointee.  Your pension research may have verified your service but pension has nothing to do with CD eligibility.

The pay incentive for former cadets is not new. It has existed at least since the 1970's and likely earlier for army cadets. 

CFAO 49-5
3d.     Former cadets of any of the Canadian Cadet organizations may be granted time credit for promotion in recognition of qualifications they have obtained prior to enrolment. The amount of credit shall be determined by CHQ.

4.     Pay entitlement on enrolment, re-enrolment or transfer shall be as prescribed in the table to  QR&O Chapter 204.305, and shall be determined by the incentive credit granted on enrolment.  A member enrolled
as a Pte (Recruit) shall not be awarded an incentive credit.  However, a member enrolled as a Pte (basic) or above whose former military service (including cadet service) is deemed equivalent to service in the Primary
Reserve, may be awarded an incentive credit on enrolment by the enrolment authority.  Former cadets may be granted IC in accordance with 6-1

CFAO 6-1 superseded by DAOD 5002-1. -  A rank higher than Pte(R)/OS, and qualifying service, may be granted to an applicant: with special civilian qualifications for which there is a specific military requirement; or who was a member of a Canadian cadet organization.

 

[Neill McKay]

Not in a forum.... Was a member of a sponsoring committee

Sponsoring committees can be an interesting bunch...  We have a good one, composed almost entirely of parents of current cadets, but I realise that some are drawn from other sources.  (By forum I didn't necessarily mean an online discussion forum.)

If there wasn't any pressure, wouldn't the movement still be more soldierly than it is ?

I guess I have two comments on that.  First, I don't think it's any less military than it was when I started working in the programme around 1999.  Second, I would suggest that the pressure is more from within, based on the perception of what parents might be thinking, than anything else: senior staff who fear potential community opposition so they try to soften up the image of the programme.  (See the particular policies in effect in Quebec with respect to the use of ceremonial rifles, for example.)

I strongly doubt that more than a very small fraction of parents of existing cadets feel that the programme should be less military.  Once they're in, they quickly see the value of the programme as it is now.  It's those who don't know that we have to be careful of.

 

[Armoured_Cadet]

I highly discourage even brining up that you were in cadets the fact that you push for for money, you dont want to stand out when your in the army, blend in with the group and gain their trust. Saying your in cadets and you deserve better is not right.

 

[Conquistador]

I highly discourage even brining up that you were in cadets the fact that you push for for money, you dont want to stand out when your in the army, blend in with the group and gain their trust. Saying your in cadets and you deserve better is not right.

If you're entitled to ANYTHING that will put more money in your pocket, for gods sake, TAKE IT! You're not standing out or being a blade by taking advantage of this, you're screwing yourself over.

 

[stealthylizard]

No one has to know what you are getting paid, it's confidential.  You don't even have to mention cadets to those around you, but make sure the recruiting centre, and your various clerks know about it.  As Conquistador pretty much put it, "ANYTHING that will put more money in your pocket"  $1400/month doesn't go as far as a person thinks it does.

 

[geo]

Cameron... there is nothing wrong with having been a cadet & saying you have been a cadet.
However, there is something wrong with taking a superior attitude about it - leaving people the impression that you know it all and have seen it all.... only later to demonstrate by your deeds that you don't.

By your deeds & by your acts you will show how good (or bad) a soldier you are.

In the meantime... sign up to get the additional pay while you can... it IS yours for the taking.