Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

[Kirkhill]

@FJAG

I found his reference to the 122mm rocket interesting - I believe that is the old BM21-Katyusha round.

The principal drawback of Iron Dome is its cost. The Katyusha rockets favored by Hamas and Hezbollah typically cost about $300 a round, while the Iron Dome’s Tamir missiles cost anywhere from $20,000 to $100,000 each, depending on whose numbers are being quoted.

Iron Dome | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Israel’s defensive system brings strategic and psychological protection from rocket attacks.

www.airandspaceforces.com

Israeli-Made Bolt-On Kit Turns 122mm 'Grad' Artillery Rockets Into Precision Weapons

The multi-mode guidance package could be a particularly cost-effective upgrade for any country still using derivatives of the Soviet-era system.

www.twz.com

M1156 precision guidance kit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I assume that the Israeli EPIK kit is analogous to the US M1156 with a unit cost of US$13,541

 

[AmmoTech90]

I found his reference to the 122mm rocket interesting - I believe that is the old BM21-Katyusha round.

Katusha is short hand for any Soviet/Russian MRLS system, originally truck mounted.
BM21 are GRAD, or other version, from Iran, Arash.
The $300 ones are mass produced, but in an ad hoc manner from water pipes or similiar material. Their propellant is not produced in what we would call a factory and their payload is often repurposed explosives. The calibre Rangers from under 100mm to some under 200mm. Larger rockets are supplied by Ian and Syria.

 

[FJAG]

Technically Grad and Katyusha refer to the launchers. Katyusha referred to the initial pre WW2 BM-13 but then - like the term Kleenex - was applied to various versions of it like the BM 8 and 31 and even later systems and their rockets. The initial rockets - the M13 and M8 - were 132mm and 82mm in diameter respectively.

The BM-21 Grad went into service in 1963 using the M-21 series of 122mm rocket system.

No idea about the Israeli's guidance package

 

[AmmoTech90]

True, should have said Katusha/GRAD rocket.

 

[FJAG]

I mean, calculus is great if you want to know how much soup you can really fit in a bowl

THAT's what it's for! I always wondered. Never got that in high school either and we didn't cover it on BAOC.

 

[Kirkhill]

Meanwhile, the Aussies ...

Aussie ammo company NIOA eyes expansion of 155mm shell production amid sky-high demand - Breaking Defense

"So I think we could, with some additional investment, we could significantly increase our output, and we could do more to support the combined allied effort. ... I think Australia could lean forward more and actually support the Allied effort, including the US and its preparations in the...

breakingdefense.com

And don't forget their missile factory and the Ghostbat UAV programme.

 

[dimsum]

Meanwhile, the Aussies ...

Aussie ammo company NIOA eyes expansion of 155mm shell production amid sky-high demand - Breaking Defense

"So I think we could, with some additional investment, we could significantly increase our output, and we could do more to support the combined allied effort. ... I think Australia could lean forward more and actually support the Allied effort, including the US and its preparations in the...

breakingdefense.com

And don't forget their missile factory and the Ghostbat UAV programme.

I wouldn’t put their MQ-28 program in the same league yet - they’re not exactly at “production” mode yet.

There is huge potential but it’s still in testing.

 

[Kirkhill]

I wouldn’t put their MQ-28 program in the same league yet - they’re not exactly at “production” mode yet.

There is huge potential but it’s still in testing.

Seen. But it is further ahead than our Canadian programme.

 

[FJAG]

Meanwhile, the Aussies ...

Aussie ammo company NIOA eyes expansion of 155mm shell production amid sky-high demand - Breaking Defense

"So I think we could, with some additional investment, we could significantly increase our output, and we could do more to support the combined allied effort. ... I think Australia could lean forward more and actually support the Allied effort, including the US and its preparations in the...

breakingdefense.com

And don't forget their missile factory and the Ghostbat UAV programme.

It's a no-brainer to up production facilities and output. Even if Russia walked away from Ukraine tomorrow, there would be a need for years to come to replenish stockpiles to proper levels.

On top of that is a need to domestically build new weapon systems not currently in our inventory but that need to be there.

 

[dimsum]

Seen. But it is further ahead than our Canadian programme.

Absolutely. I just don’t want people thinking that it’s about to go into full-scale production.

It’s also a different sort of program than our MQ-9B one. The RAAF is assisting Boeing with development, testing, and probably (?) buying some later. We’re just buying a product.

 

[FJAG]

We’re just buying a product.

20 some odd years to get an off-the-shelf product.

 

[dimsum]

20 some odd years to get an off-the-shelf product.

I won’t say there wasn’t some fuckery, but the product in 2007 is not the same as the product in 2023 (when it was signed).

 

[FJAG]

I won’t say there wasn’t some fuckery, but the product in 2007 is not the same as the product in 2023 (when it was signed).

Actually, while I have you on line.

I'm at the point in the next WAFG book where the army stands up Scan Eagle SUAV and the RCAF leases Heron TUAV both of which were good assets for the job they were doing. The only complaint I hear out of the army staff at brigade headquarters from that time is that Heron ain't no MQ-1A/B Predator and they really want a Predator with Hellfire. To my mind that's the product the army was looking for in the original RCAF JUSTAS project and which the RCAF was pursuing (when not thinking Global Hawk). Things fell apart for a myriad of reasons not the least of which was the end of the dust-up in Afghanistan.

When JUSTAS died and eventually morphed into what ended up as the MQ-9 we kind of lost sight of the TUAV capability. We did morph the Class I Scan Eagle SUAV into the RQ-21 Blackjack SUAV, and did get a more capable Class III MQ-9B SkyGuardian. So we are covered at the battle group level and the theatre level but we seem to have left a gap in the Class II Tactical UAV which should operate at the brigade/division level like the US MQ-1C Gray Eagle does from each of the US active army's divisional aviation brigades.

I'd like to get your insight on where that stands and how we got there. Basically Canada should have a UAV (IMHO an armed one) that tactically slides into the Class II / Bde/Div level. I'm wondering what the thought processes were at the time, and what they are now. I think this might be a topic for us to discuss offline by IM or preferably a ZOOM chat.

 

[GR66]

On the "procurement doesn't have to be a twenty year ordeal" front....Australia has received it's first AS9 Huntsman (K9 Thunder) SP 155mm howitzers from South Korea. Ordered in 2021 and first units received in 2024.

 

[suffolkowner]

On the "procurement doesn't have to be a twenty year ordeal" front....Australia has received it's first AS9 Huntsman (K9 Thunder) SP 155mm howitzers from South Korea. Ordered in 2021 and first units received in 2024.

our problem is getting to the ordered part

 

[OldSolduer]

our problem is getting to the ordered part

All while wrangling industrial benefits for….whoever is the GoCs favorite company.

But what do peacekeeping troops need artillery for?

 

[FJAG]

Interesting, but logical, direction the US Army is taking with its indirect fires program.

Why the Army is looking abroad to close a widening artillery gun gap

Operations in Ukraine have proven artillery is essential, but needs to adapt. The Army continues to decipher a path to modernize artillery in its ranks.

www.defensenews.com

 

[KevinB]

The South Koreans have the K9 at AUSA.

It is absolutely ENORMOUS, like maked the Archer at the BAE area look like a toy in comparison.

They did not have it open for viewing- but the exterior of it was imposing.

 

[FJAG]

The South Koreans have the K9 at AUSA.

It is absolutely ENORMOUS, like maked the Archer at the BAE area look like a toy in comparison.

They did not have it open for viewing- but the exterior of it was imposing.

Just looked at the spec sheets for the Thunder, Archer and M109 and they aren't that radically different. You light infantry guys are easily impressed by big machinery.

I'm interested. Is BAE showcasing an M109 with an L52 barrel? And does anyone have a Boxer with an RCH 155?

 

[Kirkhill]

Plan B

Stop worrying about the gun.
Improve the bullet.

Army Wants Its New Tank-Busting 155mm Artillery Shells To Work Cooperatively To Find Their Targets

The baseline 155mm XM1180 anti-armor round will offer Army artillery units a valuable new way to hit enemy tanks, even if they are moving.

www.twz.com

Swarming bullets
Autonomous bullets
Ramjet powered bullets
Link-16 bullets

All the gun has to do is punt the round into the air so that it can take flight and guide itself to the target.

Army Successfully Conducts First Cannon Delivered Area Effects Munition Test

The U.S. Army's Precision Attack Cannon Munitions Product Office successfully conducted the first test live fire of the XM1180 C-DAEM Armor Projectile.

www.army.mil

Joint Program Executive Office for Armaments & Ammunition > Project Offices > PM CAS > Organizations > Precision Attack Cannon Munitions > Products > XM11208