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Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

Interesting, did not know the Brits got 17km out of their M118 with supercharge and 24km with rocket assisted.

I know that I hold the unpopular opinion that we would do well to equip the majority of Reserve artillery units with either modernized M118 or M119 guns. Plus we could make the components and ammunition here for ourselves and Ukraine. Not to mention anyone else looking for light artillery.
 
Got me wondering again about the whole 120mm mortar issue.

The French find it necessary to mount their 120s on wheels.
Manpack is a stretch.
The shell weight is heavier than the 105.
The range is shorter than the 105.
And there is that whole blast brain damage thingy.

The L119 is heavier than the 120mm but if both need a motor to drag them so what?
Both are compatible with light vehicles and helicopters (uncrewed UH60s with clamshell doors?)
Draggable.
Dig inable.
Growth potential.

It seems the Brits had an interesting matched set of rounds and tubes that outranged the Yanks but were crowded out of the market by the sheer number of Yankee rounds in inventory. Ukraine seems to have solved that problem by clearing the inventory.

I think that leaves the Ukrainians and the Brits with the option of making the Brit gun, and the Brit ammo, in Ukraine and taking advantage of the longer ranges.

Also, I think that RAP round may present some interesting growth potential. Ukrainians + developments in rocketry + drone guidance technologies = longer ranged precision kills?
 
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And if that, then what about this?

defenceweb.co.za

Denel Land Systems' LEO leaps forward - defenceWeb

The development the 105mm LAV III Light Self-Propelled Howitzer (LSPH) has taken another leap forward with the certification of the system as safe for manned
defenceweb.co.za defenceweb.co.za

As a battle group weapon for LAV battalions instead of the AMOS/NEMO type solutions.
Leaving the 155s for Brigade and Division.

L119s for light battle groups and limit mortars to the well proven 81mm.
 
Retired AF Guy said:
Interestingly, KNDS has now come out with a tracked version of their wheeled RCH 155 and was apparently shown this years AUSA 2025.

Germany Created a New Tracked Version of the RCH 155 to Replace the M109A7 in the US Army - Militarnyi

So the South Koreans come out with a wheeled version of their tracked K9 155mm SP gun and the Germans come out with a tracked version of their wheeled RCH 155 SP gun!

Go figure!!
Click to expand...

And many armies are buying both tracks and wheels.

Managing two different battlespaces? High density threat and low density threat?
 
Colin Parkinson said:
Interesting, did not know the Brits got 17km out of their M118 with supercharge and 24km with rocket assisted.

I know that I hold the unpopular opinion that we would do well to equip the majority of Reserve artillery units with either modernized M118 or M119 guns. Plus we could make the components and ammunition here for ourselves and Ukraine. Not to mention anyone else looking for light artillery.
Click to expand...

Don't forget you also have to find lots of LAA/CUAS batteries as well.

Or do you want to leave that up to the infantry and cavalry?
 
Retired AF Guy said:
Interestingly, KNDS has now come out with a tracked version of their wheeled RCH 155 and was apparently shown this years AUSA 2025.

Germany Created a New Tracked Version of the RCH 155 to Replace the M109A7 in the US Army - Militarnyi

So the South Koreans come out with a wheeled version of their tracked K9 155mm SP gun and the Germans come out with a tracked version of their wheeled RCH 155 SP gun!

Go figure!!
Click to expand...
I like it more than the earlier MLRS chassis version. I'm a but confused with the term "lightweight" being applied to a 45 ton chassis that carries a 17 ton module. Hopefully they mean the whole thing to be 45 tons - but the M109 comes in at 34 tons and the J2 at 50ish and the PzH 2000 at 55 tons. Found the manufacturer's brochure which has it <45 t.
Colin Parkinson said:
Still looks like a chicken coop, but I prefer tracks than the wheels for it. I wonder if ammo storage quantity changes?
Click to expand...
Probably identical turret so same load. Also the KNDS video shows a containerized ammo resupply vehicle marginally better than the one for the Archer but still rubbish.

Are the Americans and S Koreans the only ones who understand armoured ammo limber concepts?

🍻
 
Retired AF Guy said:
Interestingly, KNDS has now come out with a tracked version of their wheeled RCH 155 and was apparently shown this years AUSA 2025.

Germany Created a New Tracked Version of the RCH 155 to Replace the M109A7 in the US Army - Militarnyi

So the South Koreans come out with a wheeled version of their tracked K9 155mm SP gun and the Germans come out with a tracked version of their wheeled RCH 155 SP gun!

Go figure!!
Click to expand...
General question: how robust is that RWS, and does the driver have any sort of visibility up there? Looks like it's just asking to get smacked into a branch.
 
Retired AF Guy said:
Interestingly, KNDS has now come out with a tracked version of their wheeled RCH 155 and was apparently shown this years AUSA 2025.

Germany Created a New Tracked Version of the RCH 155 to Replace the M109A7 in the US Army - Militarnyi

So the South Koreans come out with a wheeled version of their tracked K9 155mm SP gun and the Germans come out with a tracked version of their wheeled RCH 155 SP gun!

Go figure!!
Click to expand...
Quick note, there is really zero interest in the US Army to replace the M109A7, the only current potential upgrade project for the M109 is looking into the longer 52 cal barrel, and the only active sources sought is for a commercial source for breech mechanisms.

One can search SAM.gov for any and all Artillery related issues

SAM.gov | Search

sam.gov sam.gov

Edit: there is a Industry Demo in Jan 26 at Yuma Proving Grounds - it's a "redo" of the Wheeled SPG program but this time also includes tracks.
BAE is showing off its "M109A8" 52 cal system, and most of the wheeled folks will be there, as well as Hanwha Defense is reported bringing both the tracked and wheeled K9's. The biggest breakdown of most of the foreign systems is the ammunition handling systems - with really only the US and SK (as @FJAG already noted) paying any sort of attention to a proper armored limber sustainment method.

Given the ERCA "cancellation" (not cancelled but put back into long term development and evaluation), I find the likleyhood of anything but the M109A8 going forward to be a snowballs chance in hell.
 
KevinB said:
Quick note, there is really zero interest in the US Army to replace the M109A7, the only current potential upgrade project for the M109 is looking into the longer 52 cal barrel, and the only active sources sought is for a commercial source for breech mechanisms.

One can search SAM.gov for any and all Artillery related issues

SAM.gov | Search

sam.gov sam.gov

Edit: there is a Industry Demo in Jan 26 at Yuma Proving Grounds - it's a "redo" of the Wheeled SPG program but this time also includes tracks.
BAE is showing off its "M109A8" 52 cal system, and most of the wheeled folks will be there, as well as Hanwha Defense is reported bringing both the tracked and wheeled K9's. The biggest breakdown of most of the foreign systems is the ammunition handling systems - with really only the US and SK (as @FJAG already noted) paying any sort of attention to a proper armored limber sustainment method.

Given the ERCA "cancellation" (not cancelled but put back into long term development and evaluation), I find the likleyhood of anything but the M109A8 going forward to be a snowballs chance in hell.
Click to expand...

File under What If:

What if the 105mm Tank Gun MGS had never been fielded and instead each SBCT had received 27 105mm SPH variants instead?

1760548374720.jpeg
 
Kirkhill said:
File under What If:

What if the 105mm Tank Gun MGS had never been fielded and instead each SBCT had received 27 105mm SPH variants instead?

View attachment 96238
Click to expand...
I’m curious as to the number 27.

But…
We’d be dumping them.

With the refocus on LSCO’s and DivArty being the fires focus none of the Maneuver Bde’s hold Arty anymore. No Stryker Div’s so no wheeled SPG’s. You are either a Light Div SBCT or an Armored Div SBCT so you get M119, M777 and HIMARS fire support from the Light Divisions Fires Bde or M109, MLRS and HIMARS fire support from the Armored Fires Bde.

*yes some independent Bde’s still exist, but generally everything is Div focused or higher.
 
KevinB said:
I’m curious as to the number 27.

But…
We’d be dumping them.

With the refocus on LSCO’s and DivArty being the fires focus none of the Maneuver Bde’s hold Arty anymore. No Stryker Div’s so no wheeled SPG’s. You are either a Light Div SBCT or an Armored Div SBCT so you get M119, M777 and HIMARS fire support from the Light Divisions Fires Bde or M109, MLRS and HIMARS fire support from the Armored Fires Bde.

*yes some independent Bde’s still exist, but generally everything is Div focused or higher.
Click to expand...

1 for 1 exchange.

27 per brigade,
9 per battalion,
3 per company.

I have to figure if the original primary justfication was bunker busting and not killing tanks then a 105mm HESH, or even a common HE, would have done the job. And you could still take on tanks over open sights like any other 105.
 
Kirkhill said:
1 for 1 exchange.

27 per brigade,
9 per battalion,
3 per company.

I have to figure if the original primary justfication was bunker busting and not killing tanks then a 105mm HESH, or even a common HE, would have done the job. And you could still take on tanks over open sights like any other 105.
Click to expand...
120mm Mortar Stryker exists.
Bigger payload than the 105mm and ATGM Strykers also exist.
 
KevinB said:
120mm Mortar Stryker exists.
Bigger payload than the 105mm and ATGM Strykers also exist.
Click to expand...

I wasn't going to bring up the 120 but thanx...

120 brain damage.
120 shorter range
105 adequate target effects

With the longer range, even if the 105s were penny packeted forwards with the companies they could all cover large areas of each other's frontages.

In which case, swap the 10 battalion 120s for 81s and the MGS for SPH 105s or just leave the 81s to the companies and add 4 more SPHs for each supported battalion.

I prefer plan A because the battalion is supposed to be a footborne battalion with transport. To my way of thinking that means that the company should be able to unship all its weapons and carry them. That doesn't apply to the MGS or the SPH and is not credible for the 120s. And in a related observation, it doesn't apply to companies with turreted LAVs.
 
Kirkhill said:
I wasn't going to bring up the 120 but thanx...

120 brain damage.
120 shorter range
105 adequate target effects
Click to expand...
Yes and now 120mm turreted options exist as well as RAP rounds.

Plus 105mm and 155mm Arty guns at Div (and previously a BN at Bde)
Kirkhill said:
With the longer range, even if the 105s were penny packeted forwards with the companies they could all cover large areas of each other's frontages.

In which case, swap the 10 battalion 120s for 81s and the MGS for SPH 105s or just leave the 81s to the companies and add 4 more SPHs for each supported battalion.

I prefer plan A because the battalion is supposed to be a footborne battalion with transport. To my way of thinking that means that the company should be able to unship all its weapons and carry them. That doesn't apply to the MGS or the SPH and is not credible for the 120s. And in a related observation, it doesn't apply to companies with turreted LAVs.
Click to expand...
You can’t easily dismount the RWS weapons on a Stryker.
The Mortar Platoons have dismounted 81mm Mortars for when one needs to walk away from the Stryker.
 
KevinB said:
Yes and now 120mm turreted options exist as well as RAP rounds.

Plus 105mm and 155mm Arty guns at Div (and previously a BN at Bde)

You can’t easily dismount the RWS weapons on a Stryker.
The Mortar Platoons have dismounted 81mm Mortars for when one needs to walk away from the Stryker.
Click to expand...

And turreted 120 weighs more and is bigger making it harder for your LAV to get into your Herc... another precondition for the US medium force. The extra weight also means fewer rounds on board as well as less room for the 81 and its rounds.
 
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