Infantry Section Loadout WW2

[Ex-Dragoon]

Hey MikeD,
  Or anyone else who would know, just curious where I would find a standardized list for a Cdn Infantry section for WW2. Thanks.

 

[Steel Badger]

Check out mike's own WW EYE-EYE site......

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Ten men, but according to battle reports:

http://www.calgaryhighlanders.com/history/quescamb.htm

http://www.calgaryhighlanders.com/history/queslbacon.htm

http://www.calgaryhighlanders.com/history/queslyster.htm

They never went into action with more than 5 or 6 guys, either due to cas or LOB.

Bouchery has a good diagram in his book on the British - I never bought his volume on the Canadians but it might be in there.

By the book you had

Corporal Section Commander - Sten
2 i/c - Lance Corporal - rifle, in charge of gun group
Bren Gunner
Bren Gun number 2

And then the rifle group, under the command of the Section Commander, all with Enfield rifles (6 men).

Do you need ammo loadouts, too?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I heard 50 rnds per SMLE, 5 mags per sten and 5 per Bren

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I heard 50 rnds per SMLE, 5 mags per sten and 5 per Bren

Yes on the SMLE (replaced in 1942/43 with the No. 4 Mk I) and the Sten.  Bren was 25 mags per section, with 2 per rifleman, and 4 for the Bren Gunner and section 2 i/c and 5 mags for the Bren No. 2.  By the book (Infantry Training part VIII, 4 March 1944, as quoted in Bouchery).

 

[Art Johnson]

It depends on the the situation, if you are attacking the figures seem about right. If you are defending the situation changes and you have access to much more ammunition. We had metal boxes holding 12 Bren mags when in a   defensive posture. In Korea in one particular situation I had two men doing nothing but filling Bren Mags during an Action.
Mike is right when saying that you were lucky to have 5 or 6 men available for action. One of my jobs assigned to me by CSM George Fuller was to keep track of the ammo and rations in Coy HQ. He wanted to know how much ammo was available at each slit.

 

[Michael OLeary]

INFANTRY TRAINING
Part VIII - Fieldcraft, Battle Drill, Section and Platoon Tactics
1944

p. 39

Suggested Organization of Infantry Platoon

Pl H.Q.:

Pl Comd - pistol
Pl Sjt - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 4 grenades
Mortar L. Cpl - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 3 rds H.E., 9 rds Smk
Mortar No. 1 - Sten, 5 mags, 160 rds S.A.A., mortar, 3 rds H.E., 3 rds Smk
Mortar No. 2 - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 6 rds H.E., 6 rds Smk
Runner - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 2 grenades
Batman - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A.

(Note. -- Signal bombs as ordered will displace Smoke and HE.)

Rifle Section:

Sec. Comd - Sten, 5 mags, 160 rds S.A.A., 2 grenades
No. 1 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 2 Bren mags + 106 rds S.A.A., 1 grenade
No. 2 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 2 Bren mags + 106 rds S.A.A., 1 grenade
No. 3 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 2 Bren mags + 106 rds S.A.A., 1 grenade
No. 4 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 2 Bren mags + 106 rds S.A.A., 1 grenade
No. 5 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 2 Bren mags + 106 rds S.A.A., 1 grenade
No. 6 Rifleman - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 2 Bren mags + 106 rds S.A.A., 1 grenade
Bren Gun
2 I.C. - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 4 Bren mags + 112 rds S.A.A.
No. 1 Bren Gunner - Bren, 4 Bren mags + 112 rds S.A.A.
No. 2 Bren Gunner - Rifle, 50 rds S.A.A., 4 Bren mags + 140 rds S.A.A., 2 grenades

10 grenades per section. 6 grenades H.Q. (36, 69, 77). 74 and 75 Grenades are occasional weapons only to be carried when specially ordered.

Notes:
3 sets utility pouches to be carried by morter det. in addition to their basic pouches.
2 sets utility pouches per section carried by 2 I.C. and No. 2 Bren additional to basic pouches.
the figures above represent the amount caried, and the difference between them andc G1098 scale represents platoon reserve.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

That table is presented in graphical form in Bouchery's THE BRITISH SOLDIER Vol I.  He uses (and cites!) the same reference.

106 rounds SAA per man is two Bren mags (28 rounds each) and a bandolier of 50 rounds.  Doesn't seem like a lot, but that is the "official" issue.  Likely 1 or 2% at most of the bullets fired by those riflemen ever came close to a human target anyway....ask Strome Galloway.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Incidentally, who carried the PIAT?  I was led to believe it was carried at Platoon HQ - was there not a specific crew for it?

 

[Michael OLeary]

The reference does not allocate the PIAT to any members of the platoon in the 'suggested organization.' Use of the PIAT is, however, included in the battle drills described for attack of pillboxes and anti-tank ambushes. I expect it was probably held at the company level and carried either as an alternate weapon by the mortar crew, or assigned to one of the sections for a particular task.

 

[baboon6]

This loadout could be varied quite a lot. Certainly in the Italian theatre I think I'm correct in saying the Sten was not used by Commonwealth troops, the M1A1 Thompson being subsituted. In a book I read about the 6th SA Armoured Division (Neil Orpen's "Victory in Italy") rifle companies in the April 1945 offensive were issued thirty Thompsons each. I also read an article recently (the one on Sicily by Hayes) in which he says 1st Cdn Div swopped their Stens for Thompsons during pre-embarkation training.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Stens were not carried in Italy as you suggest, due to ammunition resupply problems.  Shipping space was limited, and .45 ammunition was going to the theatre for the Americans - 9mm was not.

 

[Art Johnson]

Tommy Guns are mentioned as being in use with the Canadian Army as early as May 1940 during the "Foray to France",

" It was obvious an appeal to his patriotism would be a waste of
                breath. So the 48th provided "persuaders"-money and alcohol, in
                the hands of Capt. Darling, who would ride in the engineer's cab,
                and whose revolver holster's flap was pressed back to add menace.
                That was supported by the presence of P.S.M. Jack Laurie, ex-
                Hollinger hoist engineer, who said he could run the train.  Two
                men mounted the coal truck, brandishing Tommy guns, and three
                others pushed into the cab; they would be stokers."
                                    (from Dileas by Kim Beatie)

Section Leaders in the 48th Highlanders were issued Tommy Guns July 5, 1941. and used them up until they were replaced by the Sten just prior to Going to France in 1945.

The Piat was a platoon weapon until sometime in 1944 when the 6pdrs were withdrawn and Tank Hunting teams were formed from the men in the Anti-Tank Platoon. The 6pdrs were returned when the 1st Division moved to France or possibly even sooner.

 

[Black Watch]

see www.canadiansoldiers.com

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Thanks Black Watch but Steel Badger already mentioned that site in his above post, I appreciate it though.