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Informing the Army’s Future Structure - CAMO Discussion

I get the sense that this is being imposed on the PRes, rather than being actively sought out. The inclusion in 2nd/Defence of Canada Division of things like the DOMOPS IRU role and the Canadian Rangers aren’t what the ‘Militia Myth’ crowd traditionally loves — but they are things that the Reg Force historically hates and view as a distraction to what it does think is important — high intensity war in Europe and lower intensity war everywhere else.

And if the PRes was really trying to build a ‘2nd best army’ then 2 Div would probably include the Reserve battle schools, which it won’t — they seem to be listed under the “Training Formation” — the successor to LFDTS/CADTC. Which suggests that individual and collective training for the 2 Div is probably destined to play second fiddle to the needs of the 1st/Manoeuvre Division.

Good points... I may have over estimated the 'pull' the PRes has these days.

Anyways, Gawd Bless 'em all and I wish them great success! ;)

cohen baron GIF
 
Help a sailor out.

If you have Svc Bns in the BGs and brigades already.

Why have a brigade sized Svc Bn ?
Wow. That's a question that could take a book to answer. There are very many different ways of structuring CSS in a field force but let's bring it to the two key issues:

1. fighting elements - companies and battalions exist well forward in austere areas where the more agile a force is, and therefore unencumbered by a large administrative tail, the better. More complex CSS functions can be better carried out in more secure areas to the rear; and

2. CSS must be continuous. Generally it works on day cycles albeit that sometimes, in an emergency, it may need to be more often than that. Distance from supply depots becomes a factor and how many days of supply you can keep as far forward as possible or how far you have to frag damaged equipment back in order to repair it.

In a true divisional structure, brigades are mere tactical units which fight in the close battle while divisions are ones that use their resources to shape operations for the brigades be it through fires or CSS management.

These factors mean that CSS at the company level is tiny, maybe one supply vehicle and a veh recovery team and electronic maint team. At battalion it gets bigger to a maintenance platoon and a supply platoon. At the brigade it grows again to a maint coy and a supply company. For an independent brigade that may be enough with the service battalion tying into a national support element.

Once you build divisions with doctrinal structures, you need to provide both elements for brigade service battalions to tie into and to also provide a service battalion level of support for the divisional troops. Some resources follow different paths such as artillery ammunition from that of small arms and food.

There are many ways to structure this. In many divisions there are no brigade-level service battalions. The divisional CSS brigade does it all - the newly transformed US light divisions with their small MBCTs are an example. There the BSBs are part of the div sustainment brigade. In American armoured divisions, the combined arms, engineer and artillery battalions do not have CSS companies of their own. Their forward support companies are actually part of the TO&E of the brigade support battalion (BSB) but are habitually paired with their supported battalions. Unlike the light divisions, the armoured brigades in an armoured division have their own BSBs. Their division sustainment brigades are basically small and have only a few battalions as standard - a special troops battalion (where you keep funny little groups like finance people, mortuary folks, etc), a sustainment support battalion (supply and transport mostly) and maybe an MP battalion. But they are organized to be reinforced by specialist battalions such as logistics, transport or maintenance as required from the vast herd of USAR and ARNG CSS battalions they have. Note that American fires brigades generally do not have their own BSBs. It matters too as to whether behind the division there is a Canadian-like NSE or an own nation corps or theatre support structure.

To get back to the main point, the structures can vary greatly based on how the relevant army considers and weighs the best way to satisfy the two key issues listed above. IMHO, there does appear to be some redundancy and I do have a hard time understanding the doctrinal concept behind the structure. While I have no issue with a svc bn with each of the CMBGs, I do wonder about the need for a svc bn with each of the arty bde and CCSB. I would thing that the divisional CSS bde should be able to handle that. BUT - and its a big BUT - I don't see 1 Div as a deployable div per se. I see it as a force generating entity that may end up deploying a division-level task force made up of bits and pieces of 1 Div and, again IMHO, you can never have enough CSS force generating elements to draw on - so redundancy is good.

🍻
 
I haven't seen or heard anything beyond the speculation here and on Battle Order. I can see 4 PLDG as it was the only armoured regiment in 1 Inf Div in WW2 as the div recce regiment. But that's just me rationalizing.

🍻

There was a Modernization Naming powerpoint that hammered out the details for new formation names and changes to existing names. In that deck there are two slides, one for the RCAC and one for the RCIC, both slides stated that neither corps had made a decision on naming yet. DHH had suggested the PLDG for the new armoured regiment, and re-badging the LIR to the Royal Rifles of Canada. It was specifically noted that there is a strong desire to avoid regimental names that have a geographic association for Regular Force units, sorry FGH, you are out of the running.

The LIR is now the 3rd CLIR, but I don't know if that is the end of the naming and hat saga for that formation and its units.
 
Wow. That's a question that could take a book to answer. There are very many different ways of structuring CSS in a field force but let's bring it to the two key issues:

1. fighting elements - companies and battalions exist well forward in austere areas where the more agile a force is, and therefore unencumbered by a large administrative tail, the better. More complex CSS functions can be better carried out in more secure areas to the rear; and

2. CSS must be continuous. Generally it works on day cycles albeit that sometimes, in an emergency, it may need to be more often than that. Distance from supply depots becomes a factor and how many days of supply you can keep as far forward as possible or how far you have to frag damaged equipment back in order to repair it.

In a true divisional structure, brigades are mere tactical units which fight in the close battle while divisions are ones that use their resources to shape operations for the brigades be it through fires or CSS management.

These factors mean that CSS at the company level is tiny, maybe one supply vehicle and a veh recovery team and electronic maint team. At battalion it gets bigger to a maintenance platoon and a supply platoon. At the brigade it grows again to a maint coy and a supply company. For an independent brigade that may be enough with the service battalion tying into a national support element.

Once you build divisions with doctrinal structures, you need to provide both elements for brigade service battalions to tie into and to also provide a service battalion level of support for the divisional troops. Some resources follow different paths such as artillery ammunition from that of small arms and food.

There are many ways to structure this. In many divisions there are no brigade-level service battalions. The divisional CSS brigade does it all - the newly transformed US light divisions with their small MBCTs are an example. There the BSBs are part of the div sustainment brigade. In American armoured divisions, the combined arms, engineer and artillery battalions do not have CSS companies of their own. Their forward support companies are actually part of the TO&E of the brigade support battalion (BSB) but are habitually paired with their supported battalions. Unlike the light divisions, the armoured brigades in an armoured division have their own BSBs. Their division sustainment brigades are basically small and have only a few battalions as standard - a special troops battalion (where you keep funny little groups like finance people, mortuary folks, etc), a sustainment support battalion (supply and transport mostly) and maybe an MP battalion. But they are organized to be reinforced by specialist battalions such as logistics, transport or maintenance as required from the vast herd of USAR and ARNG CSS battalions they have. Note that American fires brigades generally do not have their own BSBs. It matters too as to whether behind the division there is a Canadian-like NSE or an own nation corps or theatre support structure.

To get back to the main point, the structures can vary greatly based on how the relevant army considers and weighs the best way to satisfy the two key issues listed above. IMHO, there does appear to be some redundancy and I do have a hard time understanding the doctrinal concept behind the structure. While I have no issue with a svc bn with each of the CMBGs, I do wonder about the need for a svc bn with each of the arty bde and CCSB. I would thing that the divisional CSS bde should be able to handle that. BUT - and its a big BUT - I don't see 1 Div as a deployable div per se. I see it as a force generating entity that may end up deploying a division-level task force made up of bits and pieces of 1 Div and, again IMHO, you can never have enough CSS force generating elements to draw on - so redundancy is good.

🍻

Thank you kind Sir. I appreciate that.

:salute: 🍻
 
Official 3 CLIR article


“The new 3rd Canadian Light Infantry Regiment gives 1st Canadian Division the agility and flexibility to respond where heavier formations may be constrained. By integrating with armour, fires, aviation, sustainment and other capabilities, we provide the Division Commander with another tool to generate combat power at scale.”
– Colonel Ben Irvine, Commanding Officer, 3rd Canadian Light Infantry Regiment
 
Official 3 CLIR article


“The new 3rd Canadian Light Infantry Regiment gives 1st Canadian Division the agility and flexibility to respond where heavier formations may be constrained. By integrating with armour, fires, aviation, sustainment and other capabilities, we provide the Division Commander with another tool to generate combat power at scale.”
– Colonel Ben Irvine, Commanding Officer, 3rd Canadian Light Infantry Regiment

Light Infantry Regiment... half a league away from the 'Light Brigade' ;)
 
In reality it is essentially a reactivation of 3 CMBG, without the Mechanized and Group parts.

Or, interestingly enough because of the three different Infantry regiments represented in their silos, the Airborne Regiment...

... upsized to Battalions instead of Commandoes.
 
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