Instructors giving students pushups - yay or nay?

[The_Falcon]

Not sure which way this is going to go, but instructors first have to be able to do push ups themselves. One past instructor of mine tried doing push ups with our platoon during morning PT. It was very hard for the platoon to keep a straight face, as this DS had his arse way up in the air, completely improper position.

Were exactly is that stated.   So far no one one has come up with an actual answer in the form of a Standing Order, CANFORGEN, CANLANGEN, CFAO etc. that states that an instructor must do the push ups as well.   My guess (and thats all it is, is a guess) is, that some course officer somewhere, on some course, some time ago, decried that all the subordinate instructors on the course he was running, must do the push ups as well.   And that, because of this one particular incident the idea that instructors MUST do the push ups as well spread, to the point where it is dogma/urban legend and no one has bothered to really question/ challenge it.

Now for someones question, what do you do if troopy can do 100s of push ups no problem.   To that I say, thats when you as an instructor have to start getting creative.   Instead of regular push ups you can use dive bombers/diamond push-ups (ie hands together)/diamonds on a helmet/ wide space (ie hand spread out twice the normal distance)/elevator push-ups/push ups wearing FFO/push ups wearing marching order/push ups with you feet raised up.   On my basic course we did all these variations, sometimes the instructors were doing them with us, other times they were right beside certain candidates "motivating" them.

 

[Unknown Factor]

So far no one one has come up with an actual answer in the form of a Standing Order, CANFORGEN, CANLANGEN, CFAO etc. that states that an instructor must do the push ups as well.

And they won't find it because it does not exist.  Corrective training is up to the CO of 'insert comd here' to dictate what 'he' will support when it comes time to conduct the PRB and topic of push-ups come up.  I've worked with schools were they are supported and other where they are not - the difference between the two, the CO and how far he was willing to support his Training Cadre if at all.

 

[PJ D-Dog]

I am not aware of any CF level regulation regarding the use of push-ups as a punishment.  From my own experience teaching recruits in the CF, the policy for delving out punishment rested with the training authority, namely the school where training was conducted.

As with everything, a measure of common sense can go a long way.  I have seen instructors dish out an ungodly amount of push-ups to students who could clearly not do them without any regard to how effective the punishment will be.  I've also seen the opposite where a small amount was given out because the instructor was doing it with them.  Different people respond to different stimulus.  The key here is to find out what makes them tick.

I am not a fan of doing push-ups with the offending student or offending section or platoon.  The punishment is for them and not for the instructor.  The students are not going to be overly concerned with how many push-ups the instructor is doing as their focus will be on getting through the session sucessfully without giving up or loosing feeling in their arms.  I believe in leading by example but there is a time and place for it.  Push-ups are a valuble tool in re-wiring the neurons of the brain to re-inforce a lesson that needs to be learned.  An instructor cannot offer constructive criticism to his students during their performance of the punishing act if he has to do it with them.  It tends to defeat the whole purpose.

Push-ups serve two purposes:

1.  used as a corrective action "don't do that again"; and
2.  it helps to strengthen the body of the recruit (and as a side effect, it also helps to strengthen the recruits obviously weak mind since he screwed up to start with).

In Marine boot camp, we did endless sessions of push-ups during our "house of pain" sessions.  It made us physically stronger and no one died from it despite being deprived water on a few occasions.  For every upward movement we had to shout "team work" and for every downward movement we had to shout out something else.  As I watched a puddle of sweat form on the floor in front of me, all I thought about was getting through the session and how much stronger I was getting.  It helped me to develop a stronger mental attitude when faced with a physically daunting task.  In the end, it helps to build morally and physically stronger Marines, soldiers, airmen, sailors etc...

As for writing a red chit saying you were bad and have the student sign it, well I don't ever remember signing anything in boot camp because I was bad although I did a lot of push-ups for allegedly committing some offense that was deemed punishable.  The chit system in the CF is only there to document the student's progress in order to build a paper trail when you kick him out.  The chit system smells an awful lot like a hair brained idea an officer had in order to cover his own rear end because he's afraid of taking responsibility for his actions.  Now it is institutionalized across the CF as part of the counselling process.

PJ D-Dog

 

[hhour48]

Hmm, I have always thought that, according to QR&Os, only your CO and/or OC have the powers of punishment; and pushups are a "motivational technique"

 

[ggranatstein]

I spent my summer as a course officer in Shilo and had a lot of issues dealing the "push-up problem."

At the start of the course, we (my platoon staff and I) had free reign to decide how and when we would give motivational pushups. After 2 weeks, there was a number of recruits from my and other platoons who went to the MIR with "severe upper body fatigue" - the MO complained to the CO of the school and the CO ordered that no pushups were to be done for a period of 1 week.  After the week was up, we were limited to giving 5 pushups / day outside of PT.

We had recruits complaining that they wanted MORE pushups. The platoon staff also complained that it was stupid and they couldn't do anything... and so on..

I was of another mindset. They are many other ways to motivate troops other than giving pushups. We got creative. Weapons PT, sit-ups, pull ups, etc. If anything, it forced us to be more creative and give the recruits a better workout.

During the whole affair, I searched far and wide for pushup directives and could not find anything.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I think pushups are cruel.  We should return to the motivational tools of yore; 50 lashes up on the halberds for farting in church, that kind of thing. Jeez man, they're pushups

 

[UberCree]

As a young enlisted soldier back in the day, I much prefered to get smoked for an hour or two over getting written up and having something go on my file.  Its immediate and it forces you to correct your behaviour.  The ONE time I made a safety violation on a range (I left my weapon on fire after clearing) I was taken out back in the woods and smoked for over an hour... I NEVER ever ever left my weapon on fire from that day forward.  Even today my thumb instinctively flicks the fire selector lever to safe every time I handle a firearm.  On a side note I HATE to see our troops walking around with weapons not on safe.

If your dog shits on the carpet, do you wait a few days then try to correct his behaviour?  No, you do it immediately.  Thats the positive of pushups, flutter kicks, koala, batman, iron chair, 400 jumping jacks, etc. etc. etc.
Pain improves learning in my case... I must be thick.
I guess it boils down to the old spanlking vs. non-spanking debate.  I am sure the feminist pc leadership of todays army is anti-spanking as well as anti-pt as punishment.
 

 

[PJ D-Dog]

At the start of the course, we (my platoon staff and I) had free reign to decide how and when we would give motivational pushups. After 2 weeks, there was a number of recruits from my and other platoons who went to the MIR with "severe upper body fatigue" - the MO complained to the CO of the school and the CO ordered that no pushups were to be done for a period of 1 week.   After the week was up, we were limited to giving 5 pushups / day outside of PT.

I can't even imagine going to the BAS in boot camp complaining of upper body fatigue.  The only time you go to BAS in boot camp is when you know you have something broken or you are bleeding from every orifice.  As for the CO coming down with his one week grace period and limiting the activity to 5 max outside PT, I believe this is an example of the CO not having any faith in his men.  Whatever happened to allowing the platoon commanders to use their own good judgement?  I can understand how the whole medical issue can scare the pants off the CO given the fact the CF is interested in saving money and not wanting to pay out any disability to anyone.  I don't believe in watering down training to this degree.  I'm sure we could both go on for pages on this topic given both our experiences.

I was of another mindset. They are many other ways to motivate troops other than giving pushups. We got creative. Weapons PT, sit-ups, pull ups, etc. If anything, it forced us to be more creative and give the recruits a better workout.

Good for you for being able to find an alternative training technique.

PJ D-Dog

 

[PJ D-Dog]

As a young enlisted soldier back in the day, I much prefered to get smoked for an hour or two over getting written up and having something go on my file.   Its immediate and it forces you to correct your behaviour.   The ONE time I made a safety violation on a range (I left my weapon on fire after clearing) I was taken out back in the woods and smoked for over an hour... I NEVER ever ever left my weapon on fire from that day forward.

This is exactly what I am talking about.  

Pain improves learning in my case... I must be thick.  

It's not a question of being thick. I goes back to what I said about re-wiring the neurons of the brain.  In martial arts, there is a concept called "pain compliance".  When you associate pain with performing a certain act, then you tend not to want to perform that act again.  There are some psychological studies on this very subject out there.  I remember watching it on PBS some years ago.  Boot camp is meant to be obediance training for humans.  If you take away some of the tools, you end up with a watered down product.  If you replace push-ups with flutter kicks or hello dollys then you'll end up with complaints of lower body fatigue.  A soldier needs upper body strength in order to carry his gear, carry his machine gun etc...Although push-ups are used as part of the remedial process, it serves to strengthen the soldier both mentally and physically.  When you take this element away, you end up with a weakened product, frustrated instructors, lower standards etc.

PJ D-Dog

 

[Tracker 23A]

I think everyone on this thread should do 30 pushups right now, stop reading/typing and begin...there I did mine, did you do yours?

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Done.. but did you do them at the same time?? START OVER!!!

 

[George Wallace]

... I NEVER ever ever left my weapon on fire from that day forward.   Even today my thumb instinctively flicks the fire selector lever to safe every time I handle a firearm.   On a side note I HATE to see our troops walking around with weapons not on safe.

That does freak people out, especially Americans on Tour....but the C-7 will not go onto SAFE unless it is loaded....sorry...Ready.

 

[GO!!!]

I think everyone on this thread should do 30 pushups right now, stop reading/typing and begin...there I did mine, did you do yours?

Sorry, I have a chit.

What?

I do!

 

[48Highlander]

That does freak people out, especially Americans on Tour....but the C-7 will not go onto SAFE unless it is loaded....sorry...Ready.

ditto with the m16, the yanks just have different drills.  weapons are always cocked and placed on safe regaurdless of wether they have any ammo with 'em.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
"severe upper body fatigue" :

I would cut my own throat before I would hand that in..........just stupid.
I guess even the military doctors now want "in/out" as fast as possible, "Yea yea, here ya go, next!!"

 

[medicineman]

    Imagine the 4 headed alien look the person concerned gets when I read the chief complaint on the chit.  I seem to recall a platoon pushup afternoon from hell one time because the same dweeb kept falling asleep in grenade class - started at 25 per session, worked it's way up to 40 or 50 at a go.  I think the end total that afternoon was in the 600 range - wanna complain about upper body fatigue - most of us could barely raise a fist to slap the flatulent butthead, much less punch him out.

    Ahhhh - the good old days >

MM

 

[Hansol]

i just did my 30.

Speaking from a potential recruits point of view, I think there are a lot of us now who are applying to the forces who are the "backlash" so to speak against this whole "pansy" way of doing things right now. I don't think I am the only one who gets sick thinking about the whole "upper body fatigue" bullshit.

I figure that it will come around in the near future, when instructors see recruits who attempt their punishment, and don't bugger off crying about it. I think that this would trickle down to the rest of the unit, and maybe stop that whole syndrome? Thoughts? Cheers -Cameron

 

[BSmith12]

I agree with Hansol but I think the pushups as a punishment is really not a punishment at all. It only makes you stronger. I'm all for it. I may not be a strong young man right now, but that's part of the reason why I'm joining the Army. I want to get into top shape and be the best I can be. I would imagine that other people feel the same way.
                            ushup:

 

[rw4th]

ditto with the m16, the yanks just have different drills.   weapons are always cocked and placed on safe regaurdless of wether they have any ammo with 'em.

Canadians do that to: I've had to do it on every tour I've been on.

For some srew ups, their just isn't any corrective action that works better then the negative reinforcement of push-ups. When someone keeps missing timings, making them strip and assemble weapons isn't corrective action since it isn't teaching them to be on time. There is really nothing better to correct this then to dole out negative reinforcement on the spot whenever they are late. Essays, chits, and whatever other paper crap you can come up with does not do shit to fix the problem. 

I think the problem lies in the fact that you also need to give out some positive reinforcement once in a while to counter balance it and that this aspect is often overlooked.

 

[GO!!!]

I think the problem lies in the fact that you also need to give out some positive reinforcement once in a while to counter balance it and that this aspect is often overlooked.

Positive?

Like telling a joke while they are doing pushups?