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Iran Super Thread- Merged

The change in leadership has not solved anything until people in that country start playing nice and look at what they have as an opportunity.  Iraq hasn't been a threat to anyone since the 90's.  After Desert Storm all eyes were on him and he knew it.  The US bombed anything that moved into that no fly zone that wasn't supposed to be there.  Saddam spent more money on Palaces and and himself then he did on his Republican guard.  He was a nut bar with extra peanuts. 

I think if you asked most Iraqi's today I think they would be happier trying to hide in the shadows of a Dictator than live through endless road side bombs and suicide attacks.  The Kurdish are loving it they practically have there own country in the north (red flag).  South of Iraq is pretty quite but they kinda like Iran (red flag).  Not great if you ask me.

Iraq and the stability of the middle east has gone down hill since Mr Bush said the major fighting was over.  The US didn't plan for this whole insurgency thing, they thought everything would be hunky dory if Saddam was out of the picture.  I can't see how even today the top brass still had a "We'll be home by Christmas" mentality.

There is a very real possibility that they will leave Iraq much like the Russians left Afghanistan. 

:cdn:

 
WASHINGTON, April 18 —As diplomats meeting in Moscow failed to reach agreement on how best to raise pressure on Iran over its nuclear program, the American and Iranian presidents, both using tough language, staked out unyielding positions today. In response to a reporter's question, President Bush declined to rule out a nuclear attack to stop Iran from building atomic weapons if diplomacy fails. "All options are on the table," he said. But Mr. Bush added, "We want to solve this issue diplomatically, and we're working hard to do so."

In Tehran, a defiant President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told the Iranian military that it had to be "constantly ready," and he warned bluntly that Iran would "cut off the hand of any aggressor," The Associated Press reported.

In Moscow, Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns said diplomats of the five permanent United Nations Security Council members plus Germany had recognized the "need for a stiff response to Iran's flagrant violations of its international responsibilities," The Associated Press reported.

But he said talks on possible sanctions against Tehran had failed to produce an agreement. Mr. Burns said the United States expected Security Council action if Iran misses an April 28 deadline to stop uranium enrichment.

Neither Mr. Burns nor other American officials would say whether Russia and China had softened their opposition to sanctions.

Tensions over Iran have helped push oil prices to record highs. Crude oil for May delivery rose 90 cents today to settle at $71.35 a barrel, after trading as high as $71.60 on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

The diplomats meeting in Moscow hoped to narrow their own differences over how best to persuade Iran to halt work on nuclear weapons.

Mr. Ahmadinejad's warning came in a martial setting, at a Tehran parade commemorating Army Day that featured the latest in Iranian weaponry, The A.P. reported. Speaking hours before the Moscow meeting, he told the military that it must be prepared to defend Iran.

"Today, you are among the world's most powerful armies because you rely on God," Mr. Ahmadinejad declared.

"The land of Iran has created a powerful army that can powerfully defend the political borders and the integrity of the Iranian nation and cut off the hand of any aggressor and place the sign of disgrace on their forehead."

But he sought to underline that Iran bore no aggressive intentions unless attacked. "The power of our army will be no threat to any country," he said. "It is humble toward friends and a shooting star toward enemies."

The United States and Britain have said that if Iran continues uranium-enrichment activities past an April 28 deadline set by the Security Council, they will press for a resolution making the demand compulsory.

Russia and China, both with trade and strategic ties to Iran, have insisted that diplomacy will require more time. A Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman, Mikhail Kamynin, said earlier that "neither sanctions nor the use of force will lead to the solution of the problem," the Itar-Tass news agency reported. But Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov called on Iran to halt uranium enrichment.

Mr. Bush, in brief comments made after announcing White House staffing changes, said that he would urge President Hu Jintao of China to increase Beijing's pressure on Iran when Mr. Hu visits the White House on Thursday.

The top Chinese nonproliferation official, Cui Tiankai, visited Tehran over the weekend to urge Iranian leaders to seek a negotiated solution, officials said.

Mr. Cui spent 90 minutes in Moscow today meeting with Mr. Burns ahead of the meeting there, said Sean McCormack, the State Department spokesman.

Mr. McCormack said, before the meeting had ended in Moscow, that diplomats were expected to weigh various ways for the Security Council to increase pressure on Iran, "whether that's sanctions or asset freezes or travel restrictions" on diplomats. He said there was also talk of ways that individual countries could increase the pressure on Iran.

Mr. Bush urged a united effort by countries "who recognize the danger of Iran having a nuclear weapon." The United States has been working closely with Britain, France and Germany on the issue.

The president's comment that "all options are on the table" came after a reporter asked whether, when Mr. Bush used those words previously, he meant to include the possibility of a nuclear strike.

"All options are on the table," Mr. Bush replied plainly, before adding, "We want to solve this issue diplomatically." The phrase has become a commonplace of administration officials since last summer in describing concerns about Iran.

It was used last month by Vice President Dick Cheney, who seemed to hint at military action or even the overthrow of the Tehran government. "We join other nations in sending that regime a clear message," Mr. Cheney said. "We will not allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon."

He also said that the Security Council would "impose meaningful consequences" if Iran remained in defiance.

Mr. Ahmadinejad's speech was broadcast live on state-run Iranian television, and foreign military attachés attended the parade, during which Iran displayed radar-avoiding missiles and super-fast torpedoes.

Mr. Ahmadinejad, who has issued a series of highly provocative comments since coming to office, jolted outside observers last week by saying that Iran had enriched uranium using 164 centrifuges, a step that could lead either to the development of power generation or the construction of atomic bombs.

Iran also asserted that it is pursuing a far more sophisticated method of making atomic fuel, using a so-called P-2 centrifuge, which could greatly speed its progress to developing a nuclear weapon.

While Iran insists that it has the right to conduct research for civilian energy production, the United States has said that Iran lost world trust by hiding portions of its nuclear program for years.

American officials also point to Mr. Ahmadinejad's public calls for the destruction of Israel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/18/world/middleeast/18cnd-iran.html?hp&ex=1145419200&en=cb696ef1f091d462&ei=5094&partner=homepage
 
From Chaos Manor:

http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/view409.html

Iran and Nuclear Weapons

First, anyone not blind will see that the West has been teaching powerful lessons over the years:

The first lesson is: if you are a dictator, or part of an unpopular government structure, get nukes, get them quick, get them in any way you have to. Get nukes and get them now.

The second lesson is, don't let go. Even if you are a reluctant dictator, even if you hate dictatorship and wish peace and democracy to your country, do not relax your grip, and do not contemplate retirement. That way lies persecution of yourself and your family, and you will probably die in a foreign jail. If you are lucky you may be put under house arrest or seek asylum in a foreign embassy.

If you are a dictator, your only chance of survival is to hang on and get nukes. Nothing else works.

Those are the lessons we teach, and anyone with sense has learned them well.

Certainly the mullahs have. Whether they have always wanted nukes, or learned to want them from the lessons the West has been teaching, is not important. They want nukes, they want them soon, and objectively they have every reason to desire them. It's a very rational desire.

That is the first thing we must understand.

Next: the mullahs understand that time is not really on their side: the West's cultural weapons of mass destruction are gnawing away at the vitals of fundamentalist Shiite Islam. The Shah opened the door, and his opening to the West and the White Revolution, while partly shut down, was permanent: in Iran they know that there is more to education than sitting on the floor and memorizing an ancient book; that there is more to life than blowing yourself up.

While the mullahs may have hopes for a different sort of society for Iran than is very likely to come, they aren't entirely unrealistic. And one way to divert this seduction of their young people is to stir the pot, make the confrontations important, go as far as they can short of provoking the West to invade. The attractions of blue jeans and rock music are great. Islam doesn't seem to be enough to overcome them. Patriotism is needed. That may do the job. And if you can convince the young people that jihad is necessary, that the West isn't going to let you have blue jeans and iPods, that the West is going to nuke your country and steal your oil and reduce you to peasantry, occupy your land but give you no security from bandits and religious enemies: if you can convince your young people that the West isn't going to let you have its goodies because it wants to steal everything you have and give you nothing -- then you are home free.

And that, I put it to you, is the mullah strategy.  Convince the youth of Iran that the West is their implacable enemy; that the West is coming for them.

And if that takes provoking a tactical "surgical" nuclear strike on some Iranian facilities, why, it's a high price, but the stakes are very high.

And of course whatever we do to Iran and Syria merely confirms everyone's desires to get nukes and get them fast.

Contemplate this while trying to decide what to do about Iran and Syria.

There were a number of advocates of preventive war in the 1940's and 1950's. Patton's view, "We're going to have to fight the Russian SOB's anyway, so why don't we do it while we have a GD army over here to do it with?" was popular with many. Deterrence and containment, the long term strategy that we adopted, was less spectacular and didn't seem all that attractive. No sounding trumpets, no drums and flag. No SAC missions and flying bombs. The force would be generated and head out over the Arctic only to be called back. Plenty of drills. Men and women sitting in isolation in deep bunkers as the klaxons went off. EWO. EWO. Emergency War Orders. Emergency War Orders. I have a message in five parts. Tango. Xray.  And so forth. But it was all a drill.

Deterrence is long, unspectacular, and often boring. Containment is frustrating. It worked, though. It contained militant Communism, a philosophy so attractive that it still claims a number of tenured professors. Communism was a lot more seductive to the West than militant Islam ever could be. Yet, in a few generations, that light failed, and Communism collapsed, not in nuclear fire but with a whimper and some artillery shells fired at a parliament building. Yet at one time, the USSR had 26,000 nuclear weapons, most of them deliverable and aimed at the USA. How many can Iran acquire with their best efforts? How many deliverable? By what means? We contained the USSR with 26,000. We deterred the USSR and chiliastic Communism which at one time had as militant a desire to sweep the world as ever did any jihadist.

Containment says: the enemy is expansive, and one of his strengths is that he is convinced that his victory is inevitable. God, or the flywheel of history, or the objective economic factors, or the laws of history, make victory certain. March in step with the flywheel of history. But if we show the enemy this is not true, that he is not expanding, that he is stuck with his inefficient system to stew in his own juices; when there is not enough to go around, then petty temptations to corruption become irresistible. If you believe strongly enough in the underlying religion, you will put up with hardships for the cause; but if the worms of doubt set in, and there is a shortage of the good things of life, human nature takes over. Corruption sets in. Inefficiencies get worse.

If we nuke Iran to destroy their capability for making nuclear weapons, we make it legitimate to use nuclear weapons to achieve cultural goals; we make preventive war a legitimate thing to do.

The result will be a change in strategy: buy a nuke. Use terror, use bribes, use infiltration, use any means necessary to get some nukes, and do nothing to provoke the west until you have them; but get them. In the West most things are for sale. Find ways to buy them.

Containment and deterrence work. Those are not spectacular policies; but they are proven. They do work. Contain Iran, and let our Cultural Weapons of Mass Destruction have time to do their work. Syria and Iran have no counter weapons. Syria is already a defensive dictatorship with no pretense of legitimacy whose sole goal is stay in power. Iran is under the control of mullahs: will they prevail over the next Iranian generation? If so, how? What are their arguments? What can we do to make them lose control? And what can we do to convince the young Iranians that they are better off following the mullahs?

Is anyone asking those questions?

The key question here is deterrence realy an option? IF the world view of the mullahs rejects the concept of deterrence, then they will attempt to strike regardless of the consequences; suicide bombing on the scale of Götterdämmerung. Myself, I would push the "Purple Finger" strategy for all its worth, redouble the "Marshall plan" for rebuilding the Iraqi and Afghanistani economies and send in container ships full of free iPODs to be distributed throughout the Middle east and SouthWest Asia, but be prepared to pull the trigger.

Also read this (long) article by Mark Styen: http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_2_iran.html

(edited to add link)
 
Last night on CBC ,airs again may 8,on cbc news world

http://www.cbc.ca/nuclearjihad/

http://www.cbc.ca/nuclearjihad/timeline.html
 
A O G 101 said:
Last night on CBC ,airs again may 8,on cbc news world

http://www.cbc.ca/nuclearjihad/

http://www.cbc.ca/nuclearjihad/timeline.html

Somebody needs a .50 cal career path reorganizer.  :sniper:
 
I believe that, as soldiers, more than anyone, we are in a position to appreciate the risks and costs of war. I dislike very much the thought of going or sending someone to fight. I would however, do so unhesitatingly when all other options have been considered and exhausted.

We must learn from History. With hindsight, we know that the World Wars could have been averted by decisive action before the first shots were fired. I believe we are at such a crossroad.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Hoseini-KHAMENEI has made his intentions very clear. Allowing Iran to develop nuclear weapons will have disastrous consequences for all, (the Iranian population included). It is time to act decisively and armed response must be seriously considered.
 
Your excellent decisive attitude seems to be in stark contrast to your UN avatar.  Hopefully they will start to feel the same way.  :salute:
 
http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=4722

Iran's possible reaction to US strikes on its nuclear program.
 
From the a/m article:

Iran's Secret Plan if Attacked by US Codenamed "Judgement Day"
Asharq Al-Awsat Exclusive
27/04/2006


Iranian Opsec is a bit lacking...

The plan, which also includes the carrying out of suicide operations targeting US and British interests in the region, as well as their Arab and Muslim allies, in case Iran is attacked, was drawn up by a number of experts guerrilla warfare and terrorist operations, and was revealed by a senior source in the Iranian armed forces' joint chief of staff headed by the veterinary doctor Hassan Firouzabadi,
You know you are getting under their skin when they start breaking out the combat veterinarians.  

According to Iran, the latest military plan includes:

1- A missile strike directly targeting the US bases in the Persian Gulf and Iraq , as soon as nuclear installations are hit.

2- Suicide operations in a number of Arab and Muslim countries against US embassies and missions and US military bases and economic and oil installations related to US and British companies. The campaign might also target the economic and military installations of countries allied with the United States .

3- Launch attacks by the Basij and the Revolutionary Guards and Iraqi fighters loyal to Iran against US and British forces in Iraq , from border regions in central and southern Iraq .

4- Hezbollah to launch hundreds of rockets against military and economic targets in Israel .

According to the source, in case the US military attacks continue, more than 50 Shehab-3 missiles will be targeted against Israel and the al Quads Brigades will give the go-ahead for more than 50 terrorists cells in Canada, the US and Europe to attack civil and industrial targets in these countries.

What about the last stage in the plan?

Here, the Iranian source hesitated before saying with worry; this stage might represent the beginning of a world war, given that extremists will seek to maximize civilian casualties by exploding germ and chemical bombs as well as dirty nuclear bombs across western and Arab cities.


Okay, wasn't it talk like that which got Iraq's ass kicked?  These clowns have no concept of "Shut the f-up".  Iran definitely is trying to be the big shooter now that Sadam is out of the mix.  I think the writing is on the wall for this one......
 
Can Iran even deny being totally in bed with terrorists? Basically everything in there is talking about go aheads for terrorists cells and organizations.

Screw

 
I don't think they deny it.  In fact, it appears that terrorists are part of their ops plan to attack various parts of the planet if they get bumped.  At least they say that.  I think upwards of 60% of that is wishful thinking and flat out BS.  However, their intentions are pretty clear:  watch us get nukes, or bomb us back into the stone age. 
I'll take modern stone age cultures for $1000, Alex.
 
From reading the article and judging from their past behavior, it is my considered opinion that the only practical way of limiting the damage to the Middle East and to ourselves is to decapitate the Iranian regime and the Revolutionary Guard. Strikes directed against their persons (government leaders, Revolutionary Guard units) as well as communications and electrical infrastructure to disable their command and control apparatus, followed by strikes directed at severing their transportation infrastructure at critical junctures will probably be the game plan, only requiring the services of SOF operators to identify and mark the high value targets for incoming planes and missiles.

"We" in the West don't need to follow up with occupation troops, simply let the Iranian people realize their oppressors have been crippled and are no longer able to exert influence over the country. This is indeed a bad option, plunging Iran into chaos and possible civil war, but the other alternatives seem even worse. On the plus side, without Iran as a safe haven and conduit for intelligence and funds, many terrorist groups such as the AQ, Hammas, Hezbollah etc. will find operations that much more difficult to carry out. They may be able to conduct a flurry of operations with cached supplies and manpower, but their operational information will become stale very quickly and the internal cohesion of these groups might come unglued (fighting over cached money and weapons, for example).The long term outlook will be better for us if and when this happens.

To make it as politically palatable as possible, I would not expect something like this to be launched until there is an unmistakable Iranian provocation (as if there aren't enough now) which will provide the Bush Administration political cover and allow the President to finish the job quickly and effectively. The range of choices is narrowing for both Iran and the West; dark days ahead.
 
Things are never as cut and dry as I've made them out to be. Iran may in fact still be quite a long ways from developping a nuclear weapon & :

"Tehran says it wants nuclear energy only for electricity. It insists on a right to atomic power for peaceful use under the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). The IAEA has unearthed no proof of a military program in three years of investigation. " - (Reuters: Iran confronts UN powers with nuclear fait accompli Tue May 2, 2006 9:16am ET)

However:
Iran says it will pursue industrial-scale enrichment based on 3,000 centrifuges it plans to start installing later in 2006. That many could yield enough fuel for one bomb within a year. - (Same)

A year would give the USA time to open dialogue with Iran (Washington severed ties with Tehran after the 1979 Islamic Revolution) - the absence of diplomatic ties does nothing to build trust & bring us closer to a peaceful resolution. But we've got to get talking & fast. Hey, they're talking with North Korea ...
 
People need to get their heads outta their asses. If Israel can have nuclear weapons, then Iran should also be able to have nuclear weapons to balance things out. Until such time as Iran gets its hands on the nukes, there will deffinately not be peace in the middle east. Israel has no reason to talk when they are the dominant power. I think the US has been sucking up to that god-aweful creation for far too long now anyway. Israel should be moved somewhere far away from the Arabs, like Russia or something. Hell we could donate somewhere in Northern Ontario for their new home. Then everybody wins. We could use more people here anyway, and they'd bring their army too so we 'd have apaches! If not we should let them deal with each other. Both sides become a glass parking lot and the rest of us can go on with business as usual.

This whole affair smells rotten. The double standard is plain for everyone to see, except the US policy makers, who are in the pocket of the big arms dealers. Can't have world peace...oh hell no, that would be bad for business. Must keep the war with Eurasia or East Asia or wherever going to support my Haliburton shares and Lockheed.  So many are ignorant out there ...they just dont' have a clue.

GIVE IRAN THE BOMB FOR PEACE THROUGH MAD (mutually assured destruction)
 
Gee, for a minute there I thought  you were going to shout "PEACE WITHIN OUR TIME" ;)
 
"GIVE IRAN THE BOMB FOR PEACE THROUGH MAD"

Mutually assured destruction works only if both participants are rational.
If one side decides that God will protect them, and if not, its his will,
they punch the proverbial button. 

Would you give a bank robber a gun so that no one gets hurt... The bank
robber has already proven he is irrational.

 
A good piece by William Arkin, "War by September? Not Likely."
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2006/05/war_by_september_not_likely.html

Excerpts:

'In the department of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, Los Angeles Times columnist Rosa Brooks wrote a flimsy and inflammatory article yesterday that war with Iran will start "between now and September." ..

srael is going to start this war, based, Brooks says, based on a fact she discovered that Iran is acquiring a Russian surface-to-air missile system that once deployed will make its weapons of mass destruction facilities invulnerable.

A wonder weapon, an Israeli rational calculation as to the optimum point of attack, a Bush administration "asleep at the wheel," all wrong, wrong, wrong; and irresponsible to boot.

I have been writing in this blog and in the paper Post about war planning for Iran, and about how the Iran and the United States seem intent upon building a house with no exits.

But I also think that war is not imminent, that is, it is not planned.  Iran of course out of panic or irrationally could attack.  So could the Israelis.  Irrationally...

Her argument is wrong on two counts.  First, that the Tor M1 missiles will change the calculus of anything in Iran.  Second, that Israel has an "ability" to unilaterally destroy Iran's nuclear facilities, and thus will lose it in the future.

Since Brooks' arguments employs obscure facts to scare lay readers of the Los Angeles Times, consider these additional facts:

    * The Russian Tor M1 surface-to-air missile system (SA-15 Gauntlet in NATO parlance) is not some wonder weapon.  The first models of the Tor M1 were deployed 15 years ago, which means it is originally based on 1980's technology.  Anyone want to buy a Soviet designed missile system from the 1980's?  Get a warranty.
    * The Tor M1 has a maximum range of about 25 km and an optimum range of 14-15 km.  The system is designed primarily to protect ground forces from unmanned surveillance vehicles (drones) and attack helicopters.  It is not optimized or particularly suitable for "strategic" air defense of fixed facilities, particularly large ones.  I doubt Iran would deploy the Tor systems at is nuclear facilities anyhow.
    * The Tor M1 is outranged by most U.S. and Israeli stand-off weapons, even by standard satellite guided bombs, which can be delivered outside of its effective range.  If the Tor M1 were defending an Iranian facility, an attacking airplane wouldn't even have to come within range of the surface-to-air missile defense system in order to deliver its weapons.
    * The Tor M1 is owned by NATO member Greece.  Get it?  We own it.  We know how it works, how the guidance works, what frequencies it operates on.  We have acquired copies, reverse engineered it, built Tor M1 simulators, and programmed anti-radiation missiles to home in on Tor signals.  I bet you Israel has much of this information as well.  Most important though, it is not some wonder weapon.'..

Mark
Ottawa 
 
Peacenik said:
"GIVE IRAN THE BOMB FOR PEACE THROUGH MAD"

Mutually assured destruction works only if both participants are rational.
If one side decides that God will protect them, and if not, its his will,
they punch the proverbial button. 

Would you give a bank robber a gun so that no one gets hurt... The bank
robber has already proven he is irrational.

Iran's leader is all BS talk. They're not going to nuke anything, and that's if they even get nukes one day. They've already said that they'd continue to allow intrusive nuclear inspections as long as they are allowed to continue research and that this will be a peaceful program. The whole thing stinks highly. The US is trying real hard to back them into a corner they can't escape from. You can't just tell a country they must "stop all research" into something as important to the future of all of us as nuclear technology- it's a joke. Has everyone forgotten about North Korea? A guy that is a true nutty dictator (the Iranian leader was ELECTED) who HAS NUKES!!! Why not go after him? (he's threatened the US with their own pre emptive strike capability numerous times).  I'll tell you why...THE WHOLE THING IS A BS US CONCOCTiON! Attacking Iran will lead to major fallout (literally) and is a joke. Don't be sucked in by the hype.
I'd more likely sign up to help defend Iran from the aggressors than join in any US led crap- if it happens.
 
I'd more likely sign up to help defend Iran from the aggressors than join in any US led crap- if it happens

Can we help you out with the airfare?  I'm sure you would be wlecomed with open arms in Tehran... ::)
 
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