Iraq barbarism-The Mutilation of 4 American Civilians-Article

[Ex-Dragoon]

So have I bubba....but a nuke will only make things worse. Won‘t solve anything. Only thing it will do is gratify your lust for more killing.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Wesley H. Allen, CD:
[qb] Thanks Che. If you are so much in love with the region, why dont you go back?

Regards,

Wes [/qb]

If you hate them so much, why aren‘t you over there gun in hand.

Knock off the smart-arse comments. The point made was that wiping out a bunch of innocent civilians is not going to accomplish anything, and certainly the existence of even a few thousand "bad apples" is not justification enough to murder even one innocent civilian.

Kind of what makes "us" better than "them", or so I always thought.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Originally posted by bub:
[qb] hey ex dragoon i just seen those pictures of them bodies hanging from the bridge,makes me pissed,theres never been a real peace in the middle east,and i don‘t think were going to see it in are time.those contractors were there to help rebuild there infrastructure. so much for that eh,.and after seein those pictures i don‘t care how many martyrs they make//// :fifty: [/qb]

You have alot to learn youngen!
Have you ever seen a land destroyed by War?
A lot of us here have and it‘s not pretty!!

Driving around and alls you see is burnt out,bombed buildings,no animals but the refuse of war.

In Zygon when we set up the Demo range for UXO and other munitions disposal we did a recce first,we found the personal belonging‘s of those who tried to escape,cloths and suit cases all over the trail,photographs also, going up to the ridge.
To this day I still wonder about those who left their belongings on that trail.

To do a wrong to counter a wrong does not make it right,it just lowers us to their level and thats what they want for propaganda to prove we are against them.

 

[1feral1]

For Mike, I was referring to the constant frustration in the region. My answer was directed at Che, who responded hostile.

What am I doing about it? Due to OPSEC I cant say, but I assure you its more than you are doing on a Tuesday night!

As for my level of tolorence, it thins daily, as does many others. We are far from Canada here, and Islamic terror groups are common in the region, and its VERY real here. I wish it wasnt but it is.

Quite frankly I have had a gutful of it all, and it sickens me even more after the 4 civvy contractors were shamlessly murdered, with the participation of kids. What are they going to grow up like?

I see the anti-west attitudes daily here by the constant powerbase of ‘them‘ which grows monthly in this country, so unless you see and taste the frustration, along with a bit of fear (my GF was even spat at recently for her western dress) do a wait out. The beautiful western Cdn city of Calgary is a long way from here, but I assure you in every major Cdn city trouble brews, as the locals have the attitude ‘it cant happen here‘.

When it comes to Australia, and it directly will, as even the PM has confessed is just a matter of time (and it has already thru Bali on 12 Oct 02 with 202 people killed including one man from Saskatchewan, and 89 Australians, which included whole families vapourised, some of which lived odown my street). I see their memorial every day. fresh flowers, sometimes candle lit.

When was the last time a group of 89 Canadians innocent civlians ever killed at once by a terrorist bomb? I say never, and I hope it never happen anywhere, but it will. We cant count the 06 Dec 1917 explosiion in Halifax, but that killed over 2000 outright, and that was an accident.

Checkout www.islamicsydney.com and patrol thru it, especially the forums.

So Mike, read between the lines before you send out a UD/ND, and stay safe in the finance office!

Regards,

Wes

 

[winchable]

Anyway Wes I would like to chat with you via PM before this touches anything else, that potentially brushes racism.
God forbid I should respond hostilty when you suggest you turn my birthpace into a parking lot.
I go back once a year thankyou.
But as I have proceeded thus far,
I will not allow you to create that rise,


Regards Malik,

 

[1feral1]

Racism? Dont think so, just an international terrosit group who wants the west DEAD!

Was my GF spat at because she was an Australian and a westerner? Yes, but all‘s I could do was leave the area (in disgust) as we were swarmed by about 15 males ages 18-20yrs old, ALL of ‘middle eastern appearance‘ who were acting in a mob mentality, some chanted Aussie slut!

So what do you think of that?

The state and federal govt has predicted a terror attack will happen, and I wonder who‘s behind that?

Hummm, you think about it.

regards,

Wes

PS email if ya want on feral99@hotmail.com as i would welcome a good discussion on this.

 

[Spr.Earl]

We can argue to our hearts content but we must all come together and make peace.

It is Man who has made the different religions for his own ends not God.There is only one God and that is the God of all of us on this earth.

 

[1feral1]

Theres no such thing as an athiest in a foxhole!

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

Ok folks, this is steering way off course here.

I think we can all agree on some basic things, like the recent civilian murders in Iraq are unforgivable, and that there are terrorists operating with malicious intent in each of our countries, putting us and our families at risk.

However, condemning an entire race or population to death as a result of the actions of a few doesn‘t make sense. There have been acts of sickening barbarism by "born and raised" Canadians and Australians alike (civvy crimes) - and I‘d be pretty unhappy if someone killed my family as "random retribution."

Anyway, I‘m not here to drag the debate out any further. Things are getting personal and unprofessional, so take it offline or clean it up.


Cheers
Mike

 

[Infanteer]

I can see that matters are getting very personal here, so as Mr Bobbitt has requested, I‘m not going to add any fuel to the fire. However, I would like to reflect of the consequences of the last week for Canada, the West, and the Middle East.

We say it is only a small minority who commits these attacks, yet whole cities openly take to the streets cheering the September 11 attacks (an attack which very nearly killed my father), and kids dismember American civilian corpses in the streets of Fallujah. Spain is targeted for further attacks while an entire family of terrorists hides out in Canada. Today, mass violence in Iraq broke out over support for a cleric who‘s popularity is based upon virolent attacks on the West.

Does this signify that the problem is worse than we thought? I want to believe that the problem is a dastardly cabal of violent fundamentalists, pushing for their own ends, but every day, my patience grows thinner and my belief in this fades.

I am NOT suggesting that it is a black and white, us-vs-them, situation. However, I no longer believe this is just the concerted effort of a terrorist group. I feel lines are being drawn in the sand by both the West and the Middle East that are making a return to any previous status irrelavant. Are we approaching Huntington‘s "Clash of Civilizations"?

Anyways, the last few years of my life have seen my outlook on humanity as a whole dim significantly....

 

[1feral1]

Good post Inf!

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Engineer Corporal]

I am saddened to see ppl posting the parking lot option.I would tend to agree that for every action their is a opposite reaction. This war on terror has the distinct possibility of going on for a decade or more. More than likely if the U.S. continues to use preemptive strikes then this war is far from over indeed. Could the Middle East with their back against the wall unite? Toppling of some of the governments is a very real possibility. In ten years who knows what the strategic situation could be. A united Middle East is exactly what Osama wants to happen. Perish the thought.

 

[Pieman]

US are already starting to respond to these attacks. I am kind of suprised they sealed off the city. Looks like this is going to be a big operation. Either way, looks like they are going to kick some serious butt!

--------------------------------------------------

U.S. forces seal off Fallujah
Last Updated Mon, 05 Apr 2004 8:38:01

FALLUJAH, IRAQ - American troops sealed off the city of Fallujah Monday as they prepared to respond to an attack on four U.S. contractors last week.

* INDEPTH: Iraq

The mission, code-named Vigilant Resolve, involves 1,200 Marines as well as two battalions of Iraqi forces. They will move into the mainly Sunni Muslim city to look for insurgents loyal to former leader Saddam Hussein who may be connected to last week‘s attack.

On Wednesday, Iraqis fired on four civilian security contractors travelling with a food convoy through Fallujah, killing the Americans in their vehicles. Their burned bodies were mutilated and dragged through the streets before two of the charred corpses were hung from a bridge as cheering Iraqis celebrated.

* FROM MARCH 31, 2003: Bodies brutalized after Iraq ambush

The manoeuvres in Fallujah come a day after militants loyal to a firebrand Shiite cleric attacked U.S.-led coalition forces in four cities in throughout the country in one of the bloodiest days of fighting since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

At least eight American soldiers, a Salvadoran and as many as 60 Iraqis died in the uprising linked to Muqtada al-Sadr, who opposes the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq. Hundreds more were injured as battles raged in Baghdad, Najaf, Nasiriyah and Amarah.

The U.S. administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, condemned al-Sadr Monday as an "outlaw" and a threat to the Iraqi people.


Paul Bremer

"Effectively he is attempting to establish his authority in the place of the legitimate authority. We will not tolerate this," Bremer said. "We will reassert the law and order which the Iraqi people expect."

Al-Sadr, 30, called off Sunday‘s show of force after the battles had raged for several hours. He issued a statement saying that street protests would be replaced by a sit-in at a mosque in Kufa, where he‘s been delivering anti-American sermons for months.

* FROM APRIL 4, 2004: Dozens die in anti-U.S. clashes in Iraq

Sunday‘s events opened up a new range of security concerns for the Americans.

So far, their biggest threat has come from Sunni Muslims, the sector of the population that enjoyed preferential treatment under the reign of Saddam, himself a Sunni.

Shiite Muslims, who form the majority of Iraq‘s population, welcomed the fall of Saddam for the most part and had until now avoided clashing with the Americans.

Written by CBC News Online staff
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http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/05/world/baghdad_outlaw040405

 

[winchable]

I gives a **** if some terrorists don‘t like getting ****ed up...to bad...they **** with us, we will bring a world of hurt down on them like they have never felt before!

What makes them so very dangerous as compared to any other foe, is the fact that don‘t care if they get ****ed up. It‘s hard for people in secular countries to understand, but when someone is so deeply committed to their religion and so fervent in their belief of the afterlife, death isn‘t the end, it‘s just another thing that happens before the afterlife, so why fear it?
If anyone has seen the movie "Live from Bagdhad" this point is illustrated in one scene where a cab driver asks the news reporter from CNN if he fears death, the reporter says "yes". He then asks the same question of the cab driver, and the Cab driver says "no" just as a few poorly armed soliders cross the road to man an AA battery.

That being said, a united ME should be a very scary thing, if someone were to actually be able to direct all the ME towards one common direction, then it would be much more difficult than it is now, in fact, it might be impossible to defeat such a movement. The people of the ME can be very committed to a cause if they believe in, committed so much more then any western people could be. This could work for, or against, the West.

Sometimes I wonder if the terrorists are in fact one step ahead of the West in that they see that the violence they are carrying out is acting as a unifier for the people of the ME, mobilising them into one direction. For example; They commit a terrorist act, we retaliate, collateral damage occurs the terrorists having access to the people at the grassroots level which the West will never have, can use this retaliation as a method of unifying the people against the invaders.

It is going to be frustrating for anyone and everyone involved, and the "us" vs. "them" attitude is going to become more clearly defined in the future, with violence uniting those which want to go the distance, and those who are more liberal in their views and wish to avoid violence but carve out a distinction from the West nonetheless being united against this, and the West lumping us all into one giant brown bag and melting sand into glass etc. for failing to base their interactions on a case by case basis.

In short, it is much too complex a problem to simply say "blow em all to **** with our big nuclear weapons" or "lets be gentle with them all and be completely passive" sticking to either policy rigidly will not work.

For my own part, I‘ll continue to adhere to the point that it is still a minority. Revelling in the street that we see on CNN after 9/11 is a minority; how many people were cowering in their concrete apartments after that happened? I would wager any amount that the people inside were still far greater then those outside. To paint every arab/muslim with the same brush is the problem that will ultimately lead to the destruction of just about everyone, through the unification of the same people we blanket coat as a result of that blanket blame. I mean think about it, if one blanket blames everyone as being a terrorist, it would only seem feasible that everyone would take on the role they feel they‘ve been given by the Western world.

Anyway, by jayzus that‘s a long post.
I can‘t emphasize enough that I and a majority of Muslims certainly condemn the killing (or any brutality for that matter) as we do have the forethought to see the outcome of such brutality as ending in the demise of what everyone is working to achieve.
It‘s easy to understand why some people have such a sour view of the Arab/Muslim male based on the actions of a few, but rest assured, it is just as easy for the Arab/Muslim male to have a soured opinion on the West based on the action of the few. So I would ask everyone to simply consider that fact before they condemn the ME to death.

So I‘ll cut it off there, and let everyone post links to extremist muslim websites, and give examples of the Arab/Muslim male behaving in a despicable manner. It makes no difference I know for my own part that I have no hate for anyone and have enough faith in the majority of my people to know they feel the same way.

So burn down the village to save it if you must.
This is becoming dangerously personal on my behalf, and I will have to duck out of this before it somehow sparks the end of the world.

Regards

 

[bossi]

On the other hand (NO pun intended) ...
Maybe it‘s kinda like cancer - sometimes you have to cut out a little extra in order to make sure you‘ve got the entire tumour (e.g. masectomy).
Certainly this analogy works vis-a-vis chemotheraphy ... (i.e. nuke ‘em).

It‘s fascinating, however, to note all the present day hysteria surrounding suicide bombers - after all, they‘re nothing new (i.e. kamikaze bombers in WWII, and the entire samurai thing, for that matter).

"Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death."
-- Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings

Samurai had no fear of death. They would enter any battle no matter the odds.
To die in battle would only bring honor to one‘s family and one‘s lord.

The samurai‘s life was like the cherry blossom‘s, beautiful and brief.
For him, as for the flower, death followed naturally, gloriously.

Many men feel that they should act according to the time or the moment they are facing, and thus are in confusion when something goes beyond this and some difficulty arises.

The man whose profession is arms should calm his mind and look into the depths of others. Doing so is likely the best of the martial arts.
-- Shiba Yoshimasa (1350-1410)
Ideals of the Samurai (pg. 48, 50)

Without knowledge of Learning, one will ultimately have no military victories.

So ... how‘d we get the kamikaze bombers to give up?
In twenty-five words or less, maybe they quit/gave up because their cause was threatened with extinction ... (?)

Sure, it‘s a shame when a few bad apples cause a basket to be thrown out ... as opposed to the entire crop (?) Sure, it sucks to be in the wrong basket - but that‘s life; it‘s not fair.
Personally, I‘m just glad we live in Canada instead of a nation suicidally consumed with racial/religious hatred, and I sure hope we can keep said hatred out.

I‘m just sorry that our immigration forms/paperwork doesn‘t include a clause to the effect that immigrants/refugees must agree to NOT continue to stoke the fires of the civil wars/violence/terrorism in their homeland (i.e. violating the safe haven Canada offers them) - punishable by deportation to whence they came.

Moderate Muslims cannot ignore the terror in their midst
By Barbara Amiel
(Filed: 05/04/2004)


The headline in last Thursday‘s Telegraph read "Islamic bomb attack foiled". Some Muslim organisations saw this as Islamophobia. I suppose the headline should have read, "Islamist bomb attack foiled" or "Bomb attack by Islamic extremists foiled", but these things happen.

Still, one doesn‘t have to be Muslim, Irish, Romany or et cetera, to understand how a community feels when it gets stuck with the actions of its worst members. When the Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the bomb was not a "Jewish bomb", but the bomb of Jewish terrorists. That much is obvious. But coming to grips with the reaction of the Muslim community in Britain to Islamist terrorism is a little more complicated.

To begin with, it‘s not very easy to know what any "community" thinks. By default, one goes to those organisations that are designated "community leaders". The two groups that head the list are the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) and the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB). They are quite different. The MCB is an umbrella for about 400 affiliated Muslim groups, including the MAB. Sheltering under that umbrella are the good, the bad and the ugly, which means that the MCB is pulled in many directions.

The MAB is quite a separate matter. It pulls firmly in one direction. Though its leaders are routinely used as spokesmen by media and politicians, this group has associations with the Muslim Brotherhood, the mother of all Islamist groups, founded in Egypt in 1928. The Brotherhood‘s ideal scenario is to reinstate the Islamic caliphate and have Muslims live in Islamic states under sharia. In pursuit of this goal, its members have been implicated in various assassinations in the Arab world, including that of Anwar Sadat. They have spawned terrorist groups in Pakistan and the Middle East, the best-known being Hamas.

The MAB‘s admiration of the Brotherhood has led it to venerate a number of very unpleasant people. The late Sheikh Yassin, former leader of Hamas, is described by them as a paraplegic of gentle mien and high moral principles. Putting aside one‘s views about how Yassin‘s life ended - assassinated by the Israelis - and concentrating on his life on earth, insofar as Yassin addressed anything moral, it was to bequeath a moral basis for mayhem, murder and suicide bombers.

Yassin was initially against using women as human bombs, but only for reasons of sharia: female bombers would have their body parts exposed when blown to bits and would also have to have a male escort when going to an assignment. He manfully overcame these scruples.

The MAB also extols the virtues of Sayyid Qutb and Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi. Qutb, one-time leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, a prolific writer and ideologist, was executed by the Egyptians for his attempted assassination of Nasser. "Sayyid Qutb," writes the MAB, went to Paradise, "a beautiful life he definitely and rightly deserved." Among Qutb‘s thoughts: "The real struggle is between Islam on the one hand and Russia and America on the other." "The Jews are behind materialism, animal sexuality, the destruction of the family and the dissolution of society. Principal among them are Marx, Freud, Durkheim and the Jew Jean-Paul Sartre." To be fair, Qutb didn‘t like Christians either.

Sheikh al-Qaradawi, another MAB favourite, heads the European Council on Fatwa and Research, the ruling ideological body of Islamic life. Given that Islam has not yet gone through a reformation, his pronouncements can sound medieval, although, to give him his due, al-Qaradawi tries to be progressive. His ruling on wife-beating, for example, prohibits using a stick and limits it to the hand (and exempts a wife‘s face as a target). Al-Qaradawi has condemned "suicide" but gives the green light to "martyrdom" - suicide on behalf of Shahadah (faith).

Last week, the other Muslim organisation - the MCB - wrote a letter distributed to the thousand mosques in Britain. The letter quotes a passage from the Koran that forbids killing "unless it be a person guilty of manslaughter or of spreading chaos in the land" (a rather elastic definition in my view) and calls on Muslims to give "the fullest co-operation" to the police in the fight against criminal activity, including terrorism.

The quick endorsement of these views by the MAB is an illustration of the letter‘s limitations. As a means of tackling Islamist terrorism or taking a stand, it is all but worthless. A meaningful letter needs to speak in the vocabulary of Islam. Among other things, the condemnation of "terrorism" and "criminal activity" would be replaced by an open condemnation of all acts of martyrdom as Shahadah . That means detonating al-Qaradawi‘s seven categories of terror - colonialist terror, state terror, international terror, political terror, terror that is permitted by Islamic law, terror that is prohibited by Islamic law and martyrdom.

The public laudations that greeted the MCB‘s letter aren‘t hard to understand. Modern Western societies genuinely prefer not to be in a state of conflict with any community. Both the Left and Right share a desire for an open, pacific society devoid of the strife, injustices, oppression and bloodshed that characterise most non-Western countries. We leap at any sign, no matter how illusory or transparent, that indicates the existence of moderates who think as we do, or whom we like to believe think as we do.

There are genuine liberal Muslim voices in our midst, uncompromising in their opposition to terror. One admires them all the more given the difficulty of speaking out against one‘s own. When the militants are violent, it also takes physical courage. There is a world of difference, though, between writers such as Fouad Ajami , Tarek Heggy (whose offices in Alexandria were burned by Islamists), the courageous London editor-in-chief of the Saudi newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, Abd al-Rahman al-Rashed, and those people sold as moderates who, after a ritual sentence condemning "all forms of terrorism", will refuse to condemn truly appalling regimes and who continue to present the most one-sided view of Middle East and Western policies.

The great majority of Muslims, moderate and law-abiding, probably want to become assimilated in the new societies of their choice or of their birth, without denying their roots. They are not interested in marches or political involvement. Who can blame them? All the same, while one has the greatest sympathy for this position, it is a luxury.

The more assertive clerical voices become, the more trains are blown up, the more demands to establish separate communities are made, the more necessary it will become utterly and completely to repudiate the militants or take the natural consequences of being tarred with the same brush.

Pursuing paper tigers such as Fleet Street Islamophobia is easy, but the real tiger is Islamic extremism: it knows no distinction between the taste of infidels‘ blood and that of Islamic moderates - except, perhaps, that the latter is a more satisfying meal.