Is bilingualism a ‘myth’? Poll shows divide between Quebec, other provinces

[Colin Parkinson]

Immersion can be a variety of different ways. Some schools its all French all the time. Others (like the one my cousins went to) was 50% english 50% French.

Heres some easy data to quantify how low the bilingual rate is

Statistics on official languages in Canada - Canada.ca

Learn about official languages in Canada.

www.canada.ca

Basically outside Quebec and New Brunswick the population which is bilingual is roughly 4-12%. Out of that population roughly 1/4-1/3 of those percentages speak French primarily. It would be very reasonable to assume the vast majority of those French speakers also speak English based off the rates of English speaking. So only 2/3 to 3/4 of that 4-12% (basically 3-9%) are actually primarily English speaking bilingual people

The overall bilingual language rate (when you add in Quebec and New Brunswick) is 18% or so currently. Up from about 12% in 1961.

6% over 60 years is nothing for a change rate. Especially when you consider the outside factors, parents putting kids in things like French Immersion to get a leg up, the internet being primarily English which encourages primarily French speaking people to learn English, etc.

I strongly suspect most the increase in bilingual speakers would be French-English rather than English-French. I also strongly suspect there is a relationship between having a higher household income and being bilingual in the English-French households.

So those mandatory French classes I don’t really think had much of a overall effect on the vast majority of the population. If it did the bilingual rate would be much higher.

Heres a simple anacdote to point out how terrible the average French classes are for us. I was at a table in the mess with our mostly anglophone crew and two francophones who got posted in from the VDQ for the sail. Those two francophones where shit talking everyone at the table in French. I understand enough to get what they were saying. I simply said ‘you guys realize I can understand french?’.

The point is I have the same french schooling background of all 8 other anglophones at that table, yet I was the only one who had any level of conversational skill in it. For most those 9 years are a waste. If you want to create bilingual people just doing a class once a day for a few years doesn’t cut it.

But thanks for assuming I got nothing out of my schooling, my experience has been I got a lot more out of my French classes than most.

Keeping in mind about that data, that many immigrant Canadians are already multilingual, but it does not count if one of the languages is not French.

 

[Bluebulldog]

I’m not looking to ‘put him into’ anything career wise; he’ll make his own decisions there. It’s important to us that he has the language heritage of both sides of his family.

Having worked in the public sector in our nations capital since 2018 ( Municipal and Federal) I can offer the following observation:

You can be an extremely competent professional, but if you are unilingual ( English) your career in the NCR will be limited once you get to a certain point. However, if you are a mediocre professional, but are bi-lingual, you will have much more opportunities and promotions. I've seen this both with DND, PSPC, NRC, etc. The number of project managers I've dealt with who were abysmal at the actual work, but yet seemed to have an untouchable quality to their career was high.

The number of taxpayer dollars that are spent on translating technical documents, just to go out to English language firms, is cringe worthy.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Having worked in the public sector in our nations capital since 2018 ( Municipal and Federal) I can offer the following observation:

You can be an extremely competent professional, but if you are unilingual ( English) your career in the NCR will be limited once you get to a certain point. However, if you are a mediocre professional, but are bi-lingual, you will have much more opportunities and promotions. I've seen this both with DND, PSPC, NRC, etc. The number of project managers I've dealt with who were abysmal at the actual work, but yet seemed to have an untouchable quality to their career was high.

The number of taxpayer dollars that are spent on translating technical documents, just to go out to English language firms, is cringe worthy.

On the plus side for military, it means if you like your current rank, and don't want to get promoted once you get to a certain spot not having a SL profile is a good way to be less competitive without the stigma and possible punishment postings for opting out or turning down promotions.

 

[Quirky]

that many immigrant Canadians are already multilingual, but it does not count if one of the languages is not French.

not having a SL profile

We really need to define "bilingual" and "SL profile" in Canada as English and French. I can technically speak three languages however it gives me nothing as a SL profile because only one of them is English.

 

[mariomike]

I can technically speak three languages however it gives me nothing as a SL profile because only one of them is English.

Bet you can't speak Jive.

 

[Blackadder1916]

We really need to define "bilingual" and "SL profile" in Canada as English and French. I can technically speak three languages however it gives me nothing as a SL profile because only one of them is English.

They are already defined. Though the Official Languages Act of 1969 "legalized" the terminology and established benchmarks for the use of both languages in officialdom, English and French were already the de facto official languages of Canada, as per the constitution of 1867, however the inequalities of opportunity for francophones were partly the impetus for Pearson's (not Trudeau) government to form the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism.

Use of English and French Languages

133 Either the English or the French Language may be used by any Person in the Debates of the Houses of the Parliament of Canada and of the Houses of the Legislature of Quebec; and both those Languages shall be used in the respective Records and Journals of those Houses; and either of those Languages may be used by any Person or in any Pleading or Process in or issuing from any Court of Canada established under this Act, and in or from all or any of the Courts of Quebec.

The Acts of the Parliament of Canada and of the Legislature of Quebec shall be printed and published in both those Languages. End note(67)

Second French language education didn't just spring up following the Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism reports and the Official Languages Act. My schooling in French predated both, though actually my first "additional" language education was Latin.

 

[Remius]

What you highlight in your very last sentence weighs much more heavily, methinks, than your second-to-last.

I'm sure Remius and friends are quite happy that PET pushed bilingualism so hard.

Not sure why you are making that assumption. I have my own thoughts on federal bilingual policies that are antiquated and likely need a revamp. I am happy though that at the provincial level before Trudeau enacted official billigualism that advocates fought hard to have school funding resinstated after decades of attempted assimilation. I am also happy that my parents spoke to me in French at home and passed on French Canadian customs and traditions knowing that that was what would be most effective rather than rely on the federal government. I am also glad that in the 90s they finally separated the school boards to effectively end English control of French school systems.

Bilingualism as a policy is pretty useless both historically and to this day for Francos and Anglos in their respective majority provinces. It's all about protecting minorities.

It's doing a pretty poor job of it though, as most Franco minorities are quickly going extinct with extremely high assimilation rates, and what English-Anglo community might've once existed in Quebec now consists mostly of poorly-integrated migrant communities who already knew English and didn't feel like learning yet another language.

I’m not sure where you are getting your numbers from. In Ontario the Franco population is growing.

2024 Report on Francophone Affairs

Read the 2024 report that highlights our efforts to support the social, cultural and economic development and influence of Ontario’s Francophone community.Download PDF

www.ontario.ca

So while the numbers are growing (not quickly going extinct as you assume) the proportion of them population wise is shrinking.

According to the inclusive definition, Ontario has 652,540 francophone residents in 2021. While it is true that in percentage terms, Ontario’s Francophone community remains a minority, the number of Francophones is growing. In fact, the number of Francophones in Ontario has increased by 30,125 since 2016.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Looked like the best thread for this.

1 November 2024 - QC group to The Supremes: Hey, what's with no French-language decisions from way back?

Supreme Court sued over not translating decisions before 1970 into French

A Quebec civil rights group is suing the office of the registrar of the Supreme Court of Canada because of the high court's refusal to translate its historic decisions into French.

montreal.citynews.ca

9 November - Supremes: Ok, then ....

Supreme Court removes all unilingual decisions from its website

The Supreme Court may have succeeded in sidestepping the request from Droits collectifs Québec (DCQ), which had dragged its registrar before the Federal Court to compel the translation into French of some 6,000 decisions made before 1969 that were only available in English.

montreal.ctvnews.ca

12 November - QC group: Um, uh, well ...

Quebec group not happy after Supreme Court deletes unilingual rulings from website

MONTREAL - A Quebec civil liberties group says it intends to push forward with legal action after the Supreme Court of Canada responded to its translation demand by simply removing

www.thecanadianpressnews.ca

 

[Rudburg]

So, serious question...if the Supreme Court is a party to a legal proceeding, where does the appeal go if the Federal Court doesn't rule in your favour?

 

[lenaitch]

So, serious question...if the Supreme Court is a party to a legal proceeding, where does the appeal go if the Federal Court doesn't rule in your favour?

To the Federal Court of Appeal, assuming they can convince that court that grounds for an appeal exist. Beyond that, they could apply to the Supreme Court but they can deny an application without giving reason.

Interestingly, I don't think similar bilingual universality is available from Quebec courts.

 

[dapaterson]

To the Federal Court of Appeal, assuming they can convince that court that grounds for an appeal exist. Beyond that, they could apply to the Supreme Court but they can deny an application without giving reason.

Interestingly, I don't think similar bilingual universality is available from Quebec courts.

As an Anglo Quebecois I appreciate this post.

Particularly as a former member of the same Reserve unit that Rocky Leja belonged to...