Is my entire unit getting screwed for leave?

[kratz]

My mother always said, "life isn't fair".
These days, people are too concerned with what is "fair".

The problem with accounting for "fair", is who thinks the work vs time off is "fair".

In the past 20+ years, we've experienced "adjustments" to the pay and benefits package,
and the results of this living experiment has been a disaster.  For each change made, it has ultimately resulted
in a savings for the taxpayer and more disgruntlement for MilPers.

Assuming everyone in a unit is getting screwed is a poor position to start from.
If the OP can offer his unit a solution to his issue, do so.

When you are posted to your next position and find it to your liking,
will you (and everyone in your situation) give up benefits to even things out, to be fair?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

But this has zero to do with pay and benefits package. It has to do with people who don't work "civie hours" in the military, what the CAF policy is regarding administering their leave and NWDs.

Some of us are at units where we do weekends on Standby, regularly. On top of that, we spend a large amount of time away from home on TDs, taskings, deployments.  We are ALSO CAF members who have lives and wives/significant others, families.  Should those working non-standard weeks be penalized and "suck it up" because it requires commands and commanders effort to come up with work and rest schedules that adhere to the LPM? 

Here's a simple solution;  follow policy, and when in doubt, follow policy.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/leave-policy.page

Application

Unless otherwise indicated, this manual applies to all members of the Canadian Forces (CF).

- Can't figure the manual out, or not sure if what you're doing is in line with the spirit/intent of the Manual?

Inquiries

Director General Compensation and Benefits (DGCB)/Directorate Pay Policy Development (DPPD).


Speaking  as a designated shiftworker who is the type that spends a LOT of weekends on Standby, TD, tasking and/or deployments, I can assure you that if you spent as much time as I do away from home or on duty (away from the unit, but still on the leash), you'd be as interested in "fair amounts of time off" as I am.  I don't get paid overtime, right?

Lastly...

My mother always said, "life isn't fair".
These days, people are too concerned with what is "fair".

I doubt will see a similar quote as part of the formal Jnr NCO or Jnr Officer leadership training in the CAF.  No disrespect to your mom intended (seriously).

Being FAIR is actually a part of being a leader.

https://www.rmcc-cmrc.ca/en/training-wing/your-goal-officer-canadian-armed-forces

Fairness:  You treat everybody justly, equitably and without prejudice

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Part of the problem in your fleet is that they made a decision a number of years ago to cut the number of combat ready crews- except that the business never went away.

Fewer crews just did more.

We suffer from the same problem in MH...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Part of the problem in your fleet is that they made a decision a number of years ago to cut the number of combat ready crews- except that the business never went away.

Fewer crews just did more.

We suffer from the same problem in MH...

Definitely, and I've heard of the..challenges hitting both the East and West coast for MH at townhall my trade had with our CWOs back in the spring.  My fleet (and unit, for the matter) isn't the only one working hard, by any means.  However, I don't think people who've never lived and breathed in a flying Sqn understand or believe how busy it is.

A 3+ year sustained operation will also tap into already stretched resources, and add to the fatigue.

ASW is dead, after all...isn't it? 

 

[CountDC]

CountDC,
Your math works if every eight day cycle starts on a Monday, but (since our weeks are only seven days long) I think we can agree that is not the reality.  Check your model for a Saturday or Sunday start to the eight day cycle and tell us who has more hours.  Or, just extend the math out to 56 days (a common termination point for both seven and eight day cycles) and tell us how the hours are different.

But it does not matter, because the CAF does not account for leave or work days in terms of hours.

The funny thing about shift work is that it is scheduled.  So if you are supposed to work Monday and Wednesday but put in for leave from Monday to Wednesday, that should not mean you get a full 8 day cycle of no work.  You should be working Thursday and Friday instead.  As long as scheduling shifts right (never left) to accommodate days of leave, then at the end of the year it works out to you having used the 25 days (depending on TI) to which you are entitled.

I did originally do the 8 day cycle for 4 different start days and the 8 days still worked out the same. I took your suggestion of running 56 days and you are right that it does run into a problem as the shift worker will have done 336 hours while the normal worker has done 320 hours, a difference of 16 hours/2 days.  Once you pass the 40 day mark is when it becomes unstable.
 
It doesn't count leave in hours but it does compare off work schedules based on hours and determines leave based on what it considers a normal work week which is 8 hours a day with half hour for lunch.  Thus at 8 hours a day a 24 hour shift equates to 3 days of a normal work schedule and requires 3 days of leave.  Problem is that does not look at a full cycle of 56 days or year.  I did the near approximation expanding the 56 days to a full year (365 days) and that ends up with the shift worker accumulating 13 days of extra work (rounding off). 

With the rough calculations the members could be given a plan of 2 days of leave for every shift day off and then the CO could grant 9 days short to cover the rest of the extra days worked in a year.  Of course there will be those that will argue everyone working the so called normal work week actually works a lot more but that doesn't count as compared to scheduled work hours. These are scheduled for the members and thus they should be compensated.

 

[dapaterson]

Or, as a domestic capability that's not deployed, we could civilianize the base/wing fire service functions, and only keep the bare minimum required to force generate for deployments...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Or, as a domestic capability that's not deployed, we could civilianize the base/wing fire service functions, and only keep the bare minimum required to force generate for deployments...

Now that we don't take RCAF fire fighters to sea anymore, or wont be very soon, I really cant see why this wont become a reality.

 

[Furniture]

I did originally do the 8 day cycle for 4 different start days and the 8 days still worked out the same. I took your suggestion of running 56 days and you are right that it does run into a problem as the shift worker will have done 336 hours while the normal worker has done 320 hours, a difference of 16 hours/2 days.  Once you pass the 40 day mark is when it becomes unstable.
 
It doesn't count leave in hours but it does compare off work schedules based on hours and determines leave based on what it considers a normal work week which is 8 hours a day with half hour for lunch.  Thus at 8 hours a day a 24 hour shift equates to 3 days of a normal work schedule and requires 3 days of leave.  Problem is that does not look at a full cycle of 56 days or year.  I did the near approximation expanding the 56 days to a full year (365 days) and that ends up with the shift worker accumulating 13 days of extra work (rounding off). 

With the rough calculations the members could be given a plan of 2 days of leave for every shift day off and then the CO could grant 9 days short to cover the rest of the extra days worked in a year.  Of course there will be those that will argue everyone working the so called normal work week actually works a lot more but that doesn't count as compared to scheduled work hours. These are scheduled for the members and thus they should be compensated.

I didn't take note of it in your original post, but have you accounted for the stat holidays in your yearly calculation? If not it would work out that a shift worker on an 8 day cycle working an extra 21 days a year. As a former shift worker, and current  supervisor of shift workers I find this discussion interesting.

 

[trigger324]

Now that we don't take RCAF fire fighters to sea anymore, or wont be very soon, I really cant see why this wont become a reality.

and it should become a reality imo, speaking as another member of the trade

 

[CountDC]

I didn't take note of it in your original post, but have you accounted for the stat holidays in your yearly calculation? If not it would work out that a shift worker on an 8 day cycle working an extra 21 days a year. As a former shift worker, and current  supervisor of shift workers I find this discussion interesting.

Nope because if you look at the leave manual it already addresses this - the CO is responsible to ensure any stats that you are required to work is still given at a later date.  If the CO is doing his job properly you should be receiving your stat at some point (say the next time off you want) instead of taking annual.