Religion in Schools (split fm Islamic Terrorism)

[CBH99]

That is the bargain that has generally been agreed across the country. Religion is not promoted by government. It is tolerated.

But our problem occurs when our values require us to be tolerant and not beat our wife while others require them to be intolerant and keep their wives in line with the rod.

I wouldn't say it is 'our problem' when those 2 ideologies clash.

This is Canada, and collectively we agree that beating up your wife is a bad thing.


If someone's values are in contrast with that, they are free to leave. But that isn't 'our problem' as much as it is 'their problem'

If they want to stay here, but want to continue beating their wife, then there are legal consequences for doing so.

I am perfectly fine with not accommodating them or their values, even if those values are derived from their culture or religion.

 

[Kirkhill]

I am not sure what you point is with all of this.



NS got rid of their public Catholic system in '70s.

My point is that we have rules that accord with our enilghtened, liberal society. I like that society and its rules. I want to conserve it.

But others disagree with me and want a different society with different rules. To achieve that they are following Alinsky's rules and making us follow our rules. They are exploiting loopholes to our disadvantage.

To prevent damage to our society then we need to close the loop hole. Often that means breaking our own rules and acting illiberally for a period.

And then the problem becomes how long is that period and when do we get back to "normal".

We had a War Measures Act and there were objections to the use of that.

We have an Emergencies Act and there have been objections to the use of that.

....

These are the reasons I don't run for office. I don't have the necessary arrogance to believe I can get things right. I just hope that somebdy else will.

And that they will act to the benefit of my side.

 

[lenaitch]

Anyone who believes religion is just about values is being naive. Religion, certainly in terms of education, is about teaching dogma - the doctrine of belief - even if is rolled into some approved provincial curriculum. People are free to hold whatever private religious belief they want, but it cannot be manifest in their public behavior if it conflicts with our societal values, and they cannot expect that the pubic purse support it.

I would dearly love for Ontario to eliminate its parochial school system and public support for other schools, but it is political Kryptonite because there are no votes in it for any party.

 

[YZT580]

Anyone who believes religion is just about values is being naive. Religion, certainly in terms of education, is about teaching dogma - the doctrine of belief - even if is rolled into some approved provincial curriculum. People are free to hold whatever private religious belief they want, but it cannot be manifest in their public behavior if it conflicts with our societal values, and they cannot expect that the pubic purse support it.

I would dearly love for Ontario to eliminate its parochial school system and public support for other schools, but it is political Kryptonite because there are no votes in it for any party.

you are absolutely correct but then again, what do you think an agnostic school system is teaching if it isn't dogma? The only difference is that you happen (perhaps) to agree to the dogma being taught.

 

[lenaitch]

you are absolutely correct but then again, what do you think an agnostic school system is teaching if it isn't dogma? The only difference is that you happen (perhaps) to agree to the dogma being taught.

'Dogma', in its strictest sense, is a set of beliefs that people accept, or are expected to accept, uncritically, that are uncontrovertibly true. Most often used in context with organized religion but I suppose could also be used in authoritarian regimes.

An agnostic school, particularly one run by the state (I'm hard-pressed to think of a private one that isn't based in faith or culture) hopefully teaches to a set of values that, in a civil society like ours, we are free to debate and question.

 

[YZT580]

'Dogma', in its strictest sense, is a set of beliefs that people accept, or are expected to accept, uncritically, that are uncontrovertibly true. Most often used in context with organized religion but I suppose could also be used in authoritarian regimes.

An agnostic school, particularly one run by the state (I'm hard-pressed to think of a private one that isn't based in faith or culture) hopefully teaches to a set of values that, in a civil society like ours, we are free to debate and question.

With the emphasis on "Hopefully". Doesn't happen at all. This is from the CBC on how kids are treated by kids and with little control by the teachers.
"Talking loudly to drown out another student, fooling around mid-lesson, mocking a classmate's incorrect answer — tales of disrespectful behaviour in today's classrooms abound.

And a recent study from Brock University in St. Catharines, Ont., found a significant increase in classroom incivility since the pandemic.

"Incivility" sounds old-fashioned, but it can disrupt classrooms and student development — and it's something educators and experts focused on Canadian youth believe deserves attention and action."
Try and find a school that anchors its curriculum on the following moral values: (from a Milton England Public School handout)

1. Unconditional Love and Kindness​

2. Integrity: The Cornerstone of Trust and Honesty​

3. Perseverance: Encouraging Resilience and Determination​

4. Respect for Others​

5. Cooperation​

6. Compassion: Fostering Empathy and Kindness​

7. Responsibility: Nurturing Active Citizenship​

8. Gratitude: Teach to Praise the Present For a Great Future​

​

 

[lenaitch]

With the emphasis on "Hopefully". Doesn't happen at all. This is from the CBC on how kids are treated by kids and with little control by the teachers.
"Talking loudly to drown out another student, fooling around mid-lesson, mocking a classmate's incorrect answer — tales of disrespectful behaviour in today's classrooms abound.

And a recent study from Brock University in St. Catharines, Ont., found a significant increase in classroom incivility since the pandemic.

"Incivility" sounds old-fashioned, but it can disrupt classrooms and student development — and it's something educators and experts focused on Canadian youth believe deserves attention and action."
Try and find a school that anchors its curriculum on the following moral values: (from a Milton England Public School handout)

1. Unconditional Love and Kindness​

2. Integrity: The Cornerstone of Trust and Honesty​

3. Perseverance: Encouraging Resilience and Determination​

4. Respect for Others​

5. Cooperation​

6. Compassion: Fostering Empathy and Kindness​

7. Responsibility: Nurturing Active Citizenship​

8. Gratitude: Teach to Praise the Present For a Great Future​

​

I agree. It seems today have either given up or, probably more correctly, had their ability to 'enforce' these values taken away from them. It's part of the reason I argued somewhere on here (I can't remember whether this thread or another) that teacher unions rightly had the ability to negotiate class sizes rather than leaving that as simply a working condition in the hands of the employer. Increasingly large class sizes, perhaps including one or more special needs students, are more difficult to control.

I said earlier that I was hard-pressed to think of a private school that wasn't religious or cultural based and on reflection can think of a number in the GTA alone. Some might have started out as parochial but are no longer. Similar to many of the universities in the Maritimes.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

With the emphasis on "Hopefully". Doesn't happen at all. This is from the CBC on how kids are treated by kids and with little control by the teachers.
"Talking loudly to drown out another student, fooling around mid-lesson, mocking a classmate's incorrect answer — tales of disrespectful behaviour in today's classrooms abound.

And a recent study from Brock University in St. Catharines, Ont., found a significant increase in classroom incivility since the pandemic.

"Incivility" sounds old-fashioned, but it can disrupt classrooms and student development — and it's something educators and experts focused on Canadian youth believe deserves attention and action."
Try and find a school that anchors its curriculum on the following moral values: (from a Milton England Public School handout)

1. Unconditional Love and Kindness​

2. Integrity: The Cornerstone of Trust and Honesty​

3. Perseverance: Encouraging Resilience and Determination​

4. Respect for Others​

5. Cooperation​

6. Compassion: Fostering Empathy and Kindness​

7. Responsibility: Nurturing Active Citizenship​

8. Gratitude: Teach to Praise the Present For a Great Future​

​

Public schools espouse a series of standards and principles they claim to promote, however they generally follow the path of least resistance when things get messy. My daughter was getting harassed by a kid with 'issues" and the teachers and principle were ignoring his behaviour and giving him a pass. I told them, she will defend herself next time and has our full backing. I also pointed out that self-defense is a right in Canada and they also have a duty to protect my daughter when under their care. After she slugged him hard, he left her alone and focused on the kids that would not defend themselves. The kid knew exactly what he was doing and was given to much leeway by the school. This is just one example and I know of many more.
Private schools also espouse standards and principles and will abide by them as long as it does not impact revenue.

 

[YZT580]

Public schools espouse a series of standards and principles they claim to promote, however they generally follow the path of least resistance when things get messy. My daughter was getting harassed by a kid with 'issues" and the teachers and principle were ignoring his behaviour and giving him a pass. I told them, she will defend herself next time and has our full backing. I also pointed out that self-defense is a right in Canada and they also have a duty to protect my daughter when under their care. After she slugged him hard, he left her alone and focused on the kids that would not defend themselves. The kid knew exactly what he was doing and was given to much leeway by the school. This is just one example and I know of many more.
Private schools also espouse standards and principles and will abide by them as long as it does not impact revenue.

and a lot of parents have their kids in those private schools because of the standards and principles

 

[Czech_pivo]

Public schools espouse a series of standards and principles they claim to promote, however they generally follow the path of least resistance when things get messy. My daughter was getting harassed by a kid with 'issues" and the teachers and principle were ignoring his behaviour and giving him a pass. I told them, she will defend herself next time and has our full backing. I also pointed out that self-defense is a right in Canada and they also have a duty to protect my daughter when under their care. After she slugged him hard, he left her alone and focused on the kids that would not defend themselves. The kid knew exactly what he was doing and was given to much leeway by the school. This is just one example and I know of many more.
Private schools also espouse standards and principles and will abide by them as long as it does not impact revenue.

The school boards are all petrified at being sued by parents and/or having 'Human Rights' charges brought against them. Not uncommon for EA's to wear Kevlar 'anti-bite' sleeves and spit shields daily in the class while working with their assigned student.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The school boards are all petrified at being sued by parents and/or having 'Human Rights' charges brought against them. Not uncommon for EA's to wear Kevlar 'anti-bite' sleeves and spit shields daily in the class while working with their assigned student.

There are some kids that have no concept of action/consequences and never will. Most of the students understand that of these kids. However there are a lot of kids who are partly on the spectrum but can understand action and consequences and have learned to exploit their "handicap". In fact we don't do them any favours by not holding them to a standard, because once they leave the school system and government care, they fail to intergrade into society and become a burden.

 

[lenaitch]

The school boards are all petrified at being sued by parents and/or having 'Human Rights' charges brought against them. Not uncommon for EA's to wear Kevlar 'anti-bite' sleeves and spit shields daily in the class while working with their assigned student.

I'm not convinced that is universally true. A lot of boards are a hotbed of social justice activism (and in some cases I'm being kind), often with some bird liberal arts degrees. They drive the idealistic, eutopian, mollycoddling approach and fail to support teachers when they try to actually control their classes. It often takes little more than minimal motivation and a small pool of like-minded voters to successfully being elected in most boards. The public engagement with school board candidates is typically abysmal.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'm not convinced that is universally true. A lot of boards are a hotbed of social justice activism (and in some cases I'm being kind), often with some bird liberal arts degrees. They drive the idealistic, eutopian, mollycoddling approach and fail to support teachers when they try to actually control their classes. It often takes little more than minimal motivation and a small pool of like-minded voters to successfully being elected in most boards. The public engagement with school board candidates is typically abysmal.

Don't kid yourself many of our teachers have bought into the same kind of rot that is in the school boards too.

 

[lenaitch]

Don't kid yourself many of our teachers have bought into the same kind of rot that is in the school boards too.

For sure, but the post I was replying to claimed the boards were cowering to the parents.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

For sure, but the post I was replying to claimed the boards were cowering to the parents.

Depends on the School Board.

Some school boards are completely enthralled by their own ideological genius- real world be damned. Other School Boards are completely run by the parents. And that is not a universal success, either.

 

[OldSolduer]

Depends on the School Board.

Some school boards are completely enthralled by their own ideological genius- real world be damned. Other School Boards are completely run by the parents. And that is not a universal success, either.

We don't give enough thought or weight to election of school trustees. Usually they are just names on a ballot and no one really knows their platform until you elect a "progressive" board who doesn't think math or history are relevant.
Or common sense for that matter.

 

[RangerRay]

We don't give enough thought or weight to election of school trustees. Usually they are just names on a ballot and no one really knows their platform until you elect a "progressive" board who doesn't think math or history are relevant.
Or common sense for that matter.

Ever read campaign material, if they even make it, by school board candidates? It’s the most anodyne stuff produced. You get absolutely no idea of their real agenda and no opportunities to question them. All you can do is read that anodyne stuff and their biographical materials and see if you can find small red flags, if possible.

 

[lenaitch]

We don't give enough thought or weight to election of school trustees. Usually they are just names on a ballot and no one really knows their platform until you elect a "progressive" board who doesn't think math or history are relevant.
Or common sense for that matter.

And we have been just as guilty of that. Unless there has been some notorious issue, they were just names on a ballot, and names of people we've never heard of. At least local mayor and council are . . .well, local. In Ontario, particularly in the north, school boards cover a huge area. Toss in the multiple boards within a given area (English Public, English Separate, French Public, French Separate) and we, like most people, just left that part of the ballot blank. In our last place, we even had a Protestant Separate Board. I lived in one place years ago that had one high school run by four boards.

 

[CBH99]

I would dearly love for Ontario to eliminate its parochial school system and public support for other schools, but it is political Kryptonite because there are no votes in it for any party.

Maybe there could be, though?

If worded/presented the right way, and if the benefits are well articulated, perhaps the elimination of such support could be used to attract some additional votes?



(I'm incredibly ignorant of Ontario's internal political scene, and have no idea of the 'substance' of the issue. But chances are if you're thinking about it, others are too.)

 

[lenaitch]

Maybe there could be, though?

If worded/presented the right way, and if the benefits are well articulated, perhaps the elimination of such support could be used to attract some additional votes?



(I'm incredibly ignorant of Ontario's internal political scene, and have no idea of the 'substance' of the issue. But chances are if you're thinking about it, others are too.)

I honestly don't know the public view on the topic. It really hasn't been platform issue in years. Unless they see a strong public support, no political party is going to touch this third rail, no matter how well articulated the position is.

Two things drive political platforms: ideology and vote calculations.

Which politician was it who said an election is no time to discuss complex issues?