Israel must tear down barrier: UN
- Thread starter Padraig OCinnead
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jutes85
Guest
Che said:
Yeah, its been quietly floating around.
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Just to hammer home the message others have already made
Matthew.
Matthew.
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absent_element said:
BS Tolerance Level???
Yeah, you're right....keep your head up your arse if it makes you comfortable.
Links:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/PLO_Covenant.html
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_plo_charter_revise.php
Very intellectual response by the way....
Matthew.
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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I've had some jewish friends and i never really liked their whole 'im jewish and the whole world is against me' attitude. The whole "a hate crime is just a hate crime unless its anti-semite, then its REALLY a hate crime" feeling i get from my jewish friends and the news really irks me. I'm not saying everyone is like that of course but thats the feeling *I* get.
That being said these guys have been putting up with attacks for a long long time.The idea of a wall doesn't bug me. It's lowered attacks by 65%? Thats awesome. Thats a lot of lives saved.
Both sides have done some stupid things, one side is trying to destroy the other while the other (basically) wants to be left alone. Maybe someone screwed up in the past by giving this side land or doing something to the other side, who cares. I think were beyond being able to fix things how they were. It's easy to judge the situation here. Imagine going to the mall and watching every single person to see if it's a little warm that day and if their wearing a heavy coat? Imagine the stress living in a place where riding a bus, going to the market or having coffee downtown makes you a target?
The UN is condemming the wall, didn't they cause this mess in the first place? I've seen stuff on both sides that i don't like but im not going to fault Israel for saying enough is enough and putting their foot down. It's stopping some hard working palastines from going to work. Well tough. Your buddies are attacking israel, do something about your own people and get them to stop sending out suicide bombers and you wouldn't need the stupid wall.
That being said these guys have been putting up with attacks for a long long time.The idea of a wall doesn't bug me. It's lowered attacks by 65%? Thats awesome. Thats a lot of lives saved.
Both sides have done some stupid things, one side is trying to destroy the other while the other (basically) wants to be left alone. Maybe someone screwed up in the past by giving this side land or doing something to the other side, who cares. I think were beyond being able to fix things how they were. It's easy to judge the situation here. Imagine going to the mall and watching every single person to see if it's a little warm that day and if their wearing a heavy coat? Imagine the stress living in a place where riding a bus, going to the market or having coffee downtown makes you a target?
The UN is condemming the wall, didn't they cause this mess in the first place? I've seen stuff on both sides that i don't like but im not going to fault Israel for saying enough is enough and putting their foot down. It's stopping some hard working palastines from going to work. Well tough. Your buddies are attacking israel, do something about your own people and get them to stop sending out suicide bombers and you wouldn't need the stupid wall.
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I hear ya ghost ...
Im jewish, but i dont play like is everyone against jewish people far from it i share your view that many jewish people do that. And yes the 65% is a huge number which is tons of lives saved. The fact that the UN doesn't want a wall there because they dont like it, doesn't even begin to make sense to Israel when they have the US support and when the results are as staggering as they are.
Im jewish, but i dont play like is everyone against jewish people far from it i share your view that many jewish people do that. And yes the 65% is a huge number which is tons of lives saved. The fact that the UN doesn't want a wall there because they dont like it, doesn't even begin to make sense to Israel when they have the US support and when the results are as staggering as they are.
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As for a person that has spent 6 months on the Golan Heights, I have traveled throughout Israel and the The Occupied zones (West Bank). i have seen both the pro and cons to both sides. The Israelis primary concern is security for the the state and its people. Whereas, the Palestinianswant they land back. They were displaced during the 67 War. However, how can you see the other side when someone else is living on your land. Rememberin the Former Yugoslavia we call it "Ethnic Cleansing.
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Gunshy,
The only problem I have with the Palestinian Land Claims as a whole is it omits the fact they were more
than willing to let the Arab Armies roll into "UN-identified" Israel, kill every last Jew, then walk in and
plant stakes claiming that land as their own.
My take on that note is that if you're an accomplice to a war of aggression where you seek to gain some
sort of spoils, you should be penalized if you get your ass kicked.
Agree, disagree?
Matthew ???
The only problem I have with the Palestinian Land Claims as a whole is it omits the fact they were more
than willing to let the Arab Armies roll into "UN-identified" Israel, kill every last Jew, then walk in and
plant stakes claiming that land as their own.
My take on that note is that if you're an accomplice to a war of aggression where you seek to gain some
sort of spoils, you should be penalized if you get your ass kicked.
Agree, disagree?
Matthew ???
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absent_element said:
No worries....
Matthew. ;D
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Ok Mathew fair enough.
The way I see the Jewish people in Israel is with great respect. They persevere against great adversity. They are surrounded by enemies who wish to exterminate their entire race and they still kick their fuckin asses. And if they feel they have to build and maintain a wall to ensure their survival....so be it!
The way I see the Jewish people in Israel is with great respect. They persevere against great adversity. They are surrounded by enemies who wish to exterminate their entire race and they still kick their fuckin asses. And if they feel they have to build and maintain a wall to ensure their survival....so be it!
Bert
Sr. Member
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I agree that the creation of a wall is a short term remedy to an impossible situation.
The UN cannot impose a better solution that hasn't already been proposed and rejected
by the Palestinians and the Israelis before.
I think the UN is right to criticize the wall. It will keep the Palestinians isolated, both
physically and economically. The UN cannot provide a solution to the problem
and keep everyone happy. The organization of the UN is not about solutions but
more consensus and discussion. To that end, the UN is effective.
Syria and Jordan criticize Israel yet don't provide much assistance to the Palestinians.
Syria maintains a Hezbollah link as well as Iran. Jordan is underpressure due to the
numbers of Palestinians within their own borders.
Largely, the Palestinian people would accommodate an Israel yet elements within their
populations wouldn't. Terrorists and suicide bombers crawl out of the population
woodwork. The Palestinian leadership support terrorism and are often found corrupt.
The Israelis do not have a common perspective (look at the factional government)
and have elements of the population that are just as hostile to the Palestinians.
In order to find a solution, the Israelis cannot push the Palestinians into small land
areas and wall them away. The Palestinians must accommodate Israel and build
a progressive society rather one bent on enemies. Just look at the a map of the
middle east and the entire land mass. Theres no room to maneuver anything
especially perspectives. Children are often brought up with guns and taught the
art of killing. Given the nature of attitudes of Arabs, Israelis, and Palestinians in
the region, there can never be a consensus to a solution. One like has to be
imposed in time.
I find it funny that many things are said and done in the name of Allah or God. Didn't
Allah or God create the Ten Commandments? Just think, if people actually followed
the Ten Commandments which is found in the Torah, the Bible, and the Koran,
do you think this crisis would continue? What is done and said in that region
(and over 2.5 million years of human history everywhere) is rather contradictory.
History repeats itself as someone else wrote.
The UN cannot impose a better solution that hasn't already been proposed and rejected
by the Palestinians and the Israelis before.
I think the UN is right to criticize the wall. It will keep the Palestinians isolated, both
physically and economically. The UN cannot provide a solution to the problem
and keep everyone happy. The organization of the UN is not about solutions but
more consensus and discussion. To that end, the UN is effective.
Syria and Jordan criticize Israel yet don't provide much assistance to the Palestinians.
Syria maintains a Hezbollah link as well as Iran. Jordan is underpressure due to the
numbers of Palestinians within their own borders.
Largely, the Palestinian people would accommodate an Israel yet elements within their
populations wouldn't. Terrorists and suicide bombers crawl out of the population
woodwork. The Palestinian leadership support terrorism and are often found corrupt.
The Israelis do not have a common perspective (look at the factional government)
and have elements of the population that are just as hostile to the Palestinians.
In order to find a solution, the Israelis cannot push the Palestinians into small land
areas and wall them away. The Palestinians must accommodate Israel and build
a progressive society rather one bent on enemies. Just look at the a map of the
middle east and the entire land mass. Theres no room to maneuver anything
especially perspectives. Children are often brought up with guns and taught the
art of killing. Given the nature of attitudes of Arabs, Israelis, and Palestinians in
the region, there can never be a consensus to a solution. One like has to be
imposed in time.
I find it funny that many things are said and done in the name of Allah or God. Didn't
Allah or God create the Ten Commandments? Just think, if people actually followed
the Ten Commandments which is found in the Torah, the Bible, and the Koran,
do you think this crisis would continue? What is done and said in that region
(and over 2.5 million years of human history everywhere) is rather contradictory.
History repeats itself as someone else wrote.
L
Linc
Guest
Great post Bert.
Thought I'd wade in with a few points to the discussion:
First, this is a map of the original Palestine Partion, as created by the UN partition plan of 1947, divided roughly in half, between Arabs and Jews. In the 1948 war, Israel rightly and competently defended itself, but annexed the Arab half in the process. Both parts were subsequently recognized as the State of Israel by the international community (except theArab/Muslim states until recently). This is now part of Israel, and is not to be confused with the current land dispute over the Occupied Territories, which is something different. The Arab 'citizens' of Israel mentioned earlier are the Arabs who remained in their homes and were given citizenship in the new country, but many fled to neighbouring countries and became refugees.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/partmap.html
The Occupied Territories, not depicted in the map, are the areas of Egypt, Syria, and Jordan which were captured by Israel in the 67 war and upon which Israel built settlements and the wall. This is the disputed Israeli territory, although a 2-state solution will probably include some of the original Arab territory form the '47 plan. The controversy over the wall, as was previously noted, is that it is built on this disputed territory, not within Israel's recognized boundaries, and around most of the settlements that Israel built on occupied land.
With regard to the Arab Israeli Citizens, they do enjoy SOME of the rights of citizenship, like the right to vote, but are barred from most public sector jobs by either law or common practice, including public utilities senior govgovernmentd of course the military. Many private employers also require proof of military service from applicants and make no distinction for Arabs who are banned from military service. Also, Arabs are banned from living in designated Jewish areas and the boundaries on Arab towns are permanently fixed to prevent expansion. Building permits are almost never issued to Arab towns, and those who build or modify thier their without permits are either fined or have their homes demolished. To Israel's credit, the Supreme Court is now slowly bringing reform, and challenging discriminatory laws, which is a complement to the integrity of their system. Israel is a democracy, but it is a democracy similar to the US before the civil rights movement. The govt still enforces segregation and Arab citizens are still second-class citizens in many regards.
If only moderates from both sides could find enough common ground and patience to get the peace process on track.
Thought I'd wade in with a few points to the discussion:
First, this is a map of the original Palestine Partion, as created by the UN partition plan of 1947, divided roughly in half, between Arabs and Jews. In the 1948 war, Israel rightly and competently defended itself, but annexed the Arab half in the process. Both parts were subsequently recognized as the State of Israel by the international community (except theArab/Muslim states until recently). This is now part of Israel, and is not to be confused with the current land dispute over the Occupied Territories, which is something different. The Arab 'citizens' of Israel mentioned earlier are the Arabs who remained in their homes and were given citizenship in the new country, but many fled to neighbouring countries and became refugees.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/partmap.html
The Occupied Territories, not depicted in the map, are the areas of Egypt, Syria, and Jordan which were captured by Israel in the 67 war and upon which Israel built settlements and the wall. This is the disputed Israeli territory, although a 2-state solution will probably include some of the original Arab territory form the '47 plan. The controversy over the wall, as was previously noted, is that it is built on this disputed territory, not within Israel's recognized boundaries, and around most of the settlements that Israel built on occupied land.
With regard to the Arab Israeli Citizens, they do enjoy SOME of the rights of citizenship, like the right to vote, but are barred from most public sector jobs by either law or common practice, including public utilities senior govgovernmentd of course the military. Many private employers also require proof of military service from applicants and make no distinction for Arabs who are banned from military service. Also, Arabs are banned from living in designated Jewish areas and the boundaries on Arab towns are permanently fixed to prevent expansion. Building permits are almost never issued to Arab towns, and those who build or modify thier their without permits are either fined or have their homes demolished. To Israel's credit, the Supreme Court is now slowly bringing reform, and challenging discriminatory laws, which is a complement to the integrity of their system. Israel is a democracy, but it is a democracy similar to the US before the civil rights movement. The govt still enforces segregation and Arab citizens are still second-class citizens in many regards.
If only moderates from both sides could find enough common ground and patience to get the peace process on track.
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- 10
I think the wall is a method for the moderates to regain control of the peace process in Israel. There are extremists on both sides which want all of the land for themselves and who view peace as the worst possible outcome.
The Palestinians want land for a homeland and the Israelies want security. To this end the peace process has been one of land for peace. The problems arise when Israeli settlers settle in disputed land and Palestinians use suicide bombers to attack Jewish civilians. Tactics which will very effectively derail any negoitiations. No land for the Palestinians since Jewish settlers live there and no security for Israeli civilians.
Untill now the only recourse for Israel when it was attacked was to launch a reprisal using helicopters and tanks. The wall is a passive way for Israel to ensure it's security. Now if it is attacked it has the option of clamping down on it's border security to try and stop any more attacks. A more restrictive border is inconvinent for some but at least it may break the cycle of violence.
The wall has been viewed as being imposed on the Palestinians by the Israelies but it also has the effect that it limits Israeli settlers incursion into the disputed land. Now that Israeli settlements have been physically separated from suicide bombers the extremists attempts to derail a land for peace deal may finally be over.
The Palestinians want land for a homeland and the Israelies want security. To this end the peace process has been one of land for peace. The problems arise when Israeli settlers settle in disputed land and Palestinians use suicide bombers to attack Jewish civilians. Tactics which will very effectively derail any negoitiations. No land for the Palestinians since Jewish settlers live there and no security for Israeli civilians.
Untill now the only recourse for Israel when it was attacked was to launch a reprisal using helicopters and tanks. The wall is a passive way for Israel to ensure it's security. Now if it is attacked it has the option of clamping down on it's border security to try and stop any more attacks. A more restrictive border is inconvinent for some but at least it may break the cycle of violence.
The wall has been viewed as being imposed on the Palestinians by the Israelies but it also has the effect that it limits Israeli settlers incursion into the disputed land. Now that Israeli settlements have been physically separated from suicide bombers the extremists attempts to derail a land for peace deal may finally be over.
The barrier will greatly decrease the number of military casualties and the number of military personel needed to guard the border. Everyone can understand this. Everyone should be happy about this. Everyone except the UN bureaucrats and all antisemites.
A concerned civilian
A concerned civilian
L
Linc
Guest
Nobody is disputing the effectiveness of a wall, or even the legality of 'A' wall, the problem is that they built the wall on the disputed territory. Why couldn't they just build the wall on Israeli territory instead of on the Occupied territory. Its like if we had a border dispute with the US so the US builds a security wall through Northern Ontario instead of along the 49th parallel. This is significant because it is seen as a land-grab by Israel, whom they think is intending to make the wall permanent. Why does everyone keep ignoring that?
Linc said:
Linc, Israelis have given their sons & daughters, husbands & wives to win not one but THREE territorial wars against neighbouring arab states (1948, 1967, 1973), the very purpose of these wars being the position of this infamous border. As the military victor of these wars, they have the privilege of tracing the border on the map. Like ALL other nations in this situation, including all western democracies and the precursor of Canada (English-French war, 1759), they could have kept the whole country they conquered and exterminate, exile or enslave its inhabitants. Israel chose to keep a small portion only, and to leave the rest to a people sworn to her destruction.
When was the last time you read the Israeli-Palestinian conflict discussed in such terms? If never, why? Why is it so unfashionable to win a war lately?
Note: The actual route of the security barrier is an improvement (for the palestinian side) over the map Barak offered Arafat in 2000 ( http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/maps/finalstatus/2000wb_israeliproposal.jpg ). This offer was rejected by the palestinians at the time.
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