Israel strikes Hard at Hamas In Gaza- Dec/ 27/ 2008
- Thread starter Bruce Monkhouse
- Start date
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zipperhead_cop said:
Why the rockets? Why not military targets in Israel? I'll give this one a shot.
My guess is that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for any Palestinian to have access to any military targets in Israel. For one, Israel has an extremely tight blockade on Gaza. Land, air, and sea are all controlled by Israel i.e. nothing goes in or out of Gaza without Israel's approval. Palestinian students aren't even allowed to study abroad. I can't imagine that checkpoints leading from Gaza into Israel would be lax at all.
Also, assuming a Palestinian were to get through the checkpoint with the intentions of attacking a military facility. How much harm could he/she do? In one of the most (if not the most) secure countries in the world, how could they plan an attack? Where could they get weapons? How well armed are the military facilities?
I don't have the answer to these questions, but my guess is that a select FEW Palestinians decided that employing terrorist tactics would have a greater impact in achieving their goals. Now we have to ask, why terrorism? To answer that, you have to understand the situation under which the Palestinians live. Does it justify their use of terrorist actions? No. Is it understandable though?
As Ben-Gurion (Israel's first Prime Minister) once said:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/mearwalt.php?articleid=9573
- Reaction score
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- Points
- 410
Thanks to Grey and Bo for taking the time. Good answers both.
And I tend to agree with the tactical reasons for the rockets. Easy, cheap and low risk. But it seems to be so utterly lacking in the strategic sense. Like here in Afghanistan. Any idiot can blow up a road and kill people, but what is the point? I know what it is here, but how is trying to kill innocent Israelis ever going to get anyone in that country interested in helping the Palestinians? Are the Israelis moving very quickly when there is a cease fire? No. Why would they? Once something resembling progress occurs somebody blows up something in an Israeli suburb. It's just so bloody mindless.
IMO Hamas, and the PLO before them, couldn't care less about their people. They are power drunk thugs who enjoy their positions and see their own people as mindless cattle to be slaughtered and displayed on television. All of these recent military actions are Israel reacting to Palestine. We can argue about the reaction and it's magnitude, but it is what it is. Bottom line; they wouldn't have gone in if they weren't getting peppered with rockets. As mentioned, poke the bear enough and then gaze in wide eyed wonderment at the reaction. But in all likelihood, if there was actually peace then the people in Palestine might look around and say "WTF? These guys are idiots! They gotta go".
And if Israel isn't moving fast enough on economic issues or development (or whatever the overarching issues are) then THAT is what should be focused on. But peace isn't what Hamas is looking for. That wouldn't be good for business.
And I tend to agree with the tactical reasons for the rockets. Easy, cheap and low risk. But it seems to be so utterly lacking in the strategic sense. Like here in Afghanistan. Any idiot can blow up a road and kill people, but what is the point? I know what it is here, but how is trying to kill innocent Israelis ever going to get anyone in that country interested in helping the Palestinians? Are the Israelis moving very quickly when there is a cease fire? No. Why would they? Once something resembling progress occurs somebody blows up something in an Israeli suburb. It's just so bloody mindless.
IMO Hamas, and the PLO before them, couldn't care less about their people. They are power drunk thugs who enjoy their positions and see their own people as mindless cattle to be slaughtered and displayed on television. All of these recent military actions are Israel reacting to Palestine. We can argue about the reaction and it's magnitude, but it is what it is. Bottom line; they wouldn't have gone in if they weren't getting peppered with rockets. As mentioned, poke the bear enough and then gaze in wide eyed wonderment at the reaction. But in all likelihood, if there was actually peace then the people in Palestine might look around and say "WTF? These guys are idiots! They gotta go".
And if Israel isn't moving fast enough on economic issues or development (or whatever the overarching issues are) then THAT is what should be focused on. But peace isn't what Hamas is looking for. That wouldn't be good for business.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Bo said:
I would add the following to your comments:
Why not military targets in Israel? - Because its hard to brag about killing Israelis if you're dead, which is what happens to you if you try to attack a hard target like an Israeli military base. It is also difficult for Palestinians to access military targets because Israelis are very good at security and dont worry about being non-PC in the media. In contrast, rocket attacks against civilian targets that dont shoot back are a pretty safe bet.
Nothing goes in or out of Gaza without Israel's approval - yet Hamas and other groups seem to somehow get their hands on a lot of weapons, explosives, and ammo. I dont think the Israelis gave it to them, so who did?
Palestinian students aren't even allowed to study abroad - I could be wrong, but I am of the impression that hundreds of them manage to attend our fine universities each year.
With the intentions of attacking a military facility - part of why they fail is not just because of security but because Israel has one the best and most proactive intelligence agencies in the world, their leaders listen when they are told a threat exists, and forces are allowed to act to negate that threat.
How much harm can he/she do? - Previous examples exist to show that a group of 19 could take out over 3,000 people given the right training, support, and equipment.
a select FEW Palestinians decided that employing terrorist tactics - delete few, replace with thousands. Not just the hundreds who are active fighters, but also the thousands who voted for the groups using terrorist tactics.
- Reaction score
- 5,962
- Points
- 1,260
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail is an insightful editorial:
-------------------------
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090116.EISRAEL16/TPStory/Opinion/editorials
Hard lesson for Hamas
January 16, 2009
Israel's military operations in Gaza have failed to stop rocket and mortar attacks, which only intensified yesterday, but they at least serve to remind Hamas and other belligerents that Israel's political will and military prowess have not faltered, contrary to any impression of vulnerability they may have inferred from the mixed results in the last Lebanon campaign.
It is an important message for Hamas fighters, their hardline leadership and the terrorist states that back them, one that was being pounded home again yesterday. Said Siam, the so-called "strongman of Hamas" who served as interior minister in Gaza and controlled paramilitary forces there, was killed by an Israeli air strike. Israeli tanks moved deep into Gaza City, taking the fight with militants into their living rooms. Such warfare is fraught, and Israeli forces did strike the United Nations headquarters and several hospitals. In close fighting, mistakes and even excesses are regrettably likely to occur.
The message, though, is immutable. Islamists in Gaza cannot gain anything from fighting against Israel. The only way ahead for Gazans is through a cessation of rocket attacks on Israel, and through diplomacy. Hamas reportedly offered a ceasefire yesterday, with a spokesman for the militant group admitting it had "no other choice." The tragedy is that with the understanding of the need for a truce there is still no illumination.
In fact, Hamas did have a choice.
The organization could have reined in its thugs. It could have ended the practice of firing rockets and mortars indiscriminately into Israeli towns. It could have sought to improve the lives of the Gazan people instead of committing atrocities against the Israeli people.
Just as after Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, Israel's opponents have again displayed their habit of missing opportunities for progress.
It is a tragedy for Gaza's impoverished and downtrodden population that it has taken so much death and destruction for Hamas to come to understand that a ceasefire is preferable to what has been experienced in Gaza in recent days. Hamas is defeated, or is in the process of being defeated. Its own leaders and fighters, and its own people, have died and been injured in numbers greatly disproportionate to the soldiers and people of Israel. It is time that Hamas, and the battered people they represent, understand not just the inevitability of defeat but also the other lessons of this new year. They must absorb the truth that harassment and provocation are not the way forward.
-------------------------
The Good Grey Globe is right: ”Hamas did have a choice … [Hamas] could have reined in its thugs … could have ended the practice of firing rockets and mortars indiscriminately into Israeli towns … could have sought to improve the lives of the Gazan people instead of committing atrocities against the Israeli people.”
Hamas made the wrong choice and like every choice the Palestinians, Arabs and Persians have made over the past 60± years it seems to fulfill Abba Eban’s message about Arabs never missing an opportunity to miss and opportunity.
Can we even imagine what Gaza might look like today if Hamas had, even for a brief time, put the needs of the people of Gaza ahead of the radicals’ all consuming hatred of Israel?
The evidence (in Egypt and Jordan) suggests that Israel can be a ‘good neighbour,’ and fair and trustworthy trading partner and, consequently, a source of prosperity. But not for Gaza and not for the West Bank where blood soaked political agendas far outweigh the needs of the people.
-------------------------
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090116.EISRAEL16/TPStory/Opinion/editorials
Hard lesson for Hamas
January 16, 2009
Israel's military operations in Gaza have failed to stop rocket and mortar attacks, which only intensified yesterday, but they at least serve to remind Hamas and other belligerents that Israel's political will and military prowess have not faltered, contrary to any impression of vulnerability they may have inferred from the mixed results in the last Lebanon campaign.
It is an important message for Hamas fighters, their hardline leadership and the terrorist states that back them, one that was being pounded home again yesterday. Said Siam, the so-called "strongman of Hamas" who served as interior minister in Gaza and controlled paramilitary forces there, was killed by an Israeli air strike. Israeli tanks moved deep into Gaza City, taking the fight with militants into their living rooms. Such warfare is fraught, and Israeli forces did strike the United Nations headquarters and several hospitals. In close fighting, mistakes and even excesses are regrettably likely to occur.
The message, though, is immutable. Islamists in Gaza cannot gain anything from fighting against Israel. The only way ahead for Gazans is through a cessation of rocket attacks on Israel, and through diplomacy. Hamas reportedly offered a ceasefire yesterday, with a spokesman for the militant group admitting it had "no other choice." The tragedy is that with the understanding of the need for a truce there is still no illumination.
In fact, Hamas did have a choice.
The organization could have reined in its thugs. It could have ended the practice of firing rockets and mortars indiscriminately into Israeli towns. It could have sought to improve the lives of the Gazan people instead of committing atrocities against the Israeli people.
Just as after Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, Israel's opponents have again displayed their habit of missing opportunities for progress.
It is a tragedy for Gaza's impoverished and downtrodden population that it has taken so much death and destruction for Hamas to come to understand that a ceasefire is preferable to what has been experienced in Gaza in recent days. Hamas is defeated, or is in the process of being defeated. Its own leaders and fighters, and its own people, have died and been injured in numbers greatly disproportionate to the soldiers and people of Israel. It is time that Hamas, and the battered people they represent, understand not just the inevitability of defeat but also the other lessons of this new year. They must absorb the truth that harassment and provocation are not the way forward.
-------------------------
The Good Grey Globe is right: ”Hamas did have a choice … [Hamas] could have reined in its thugs … could have ended the practice of firing rockets and mortars indiscriminately into Israeli towns … could have sought to improve the lives of the Gazan people instead of committing atrocities against the Israeli people.”
Hamas made the wrong choice and like every choice the Palestinians, Arabs and Persians have made over the past 60± years it seems to fulfill Abba Eban’s message about Arabs never missing an opportunity to miss and opportunity.
Can we even imagine what Gaza might look like today if Hamas had, even for a brief time, put the needs of the people of Gaza ahead of the radicals’ all consuming hatred of Israel?
The evidence (in Egypt and Jordan) suggests that Israel can be a ‘good neighbour,’ and fair and trustworthy trading partner and, consequently, a source of prosperity. But not for Gaza and not for the West Bank where blood soaked political agendas far outweigh the needs of the people.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Now might be a good time to review the Hamas Charter which I post as in information item and will refrain from editiorializing. It's rather lengthy so I will not reproduce it in it's entirety, just the link so as to economize on site bandwidth:
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
In an attempt to minimize the propaganda factor I have extracted it from a relatively bi-partisan site.
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
In an attempt to minimize the propaganda factor I have extracted it from a relatively bi-partisan site.
- Reaction score
- 5,962
- Points
- 1,260
Here is another editorial, this one is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen:
-------------------------
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/editorials/Hate+comes+town/1182873/story.html
Hate comes to town
THE OTTAWA CITIZEN
JANUARY 16, 2009 7:07 AM
The killing continues, as the Israeli military intensifies its search and destroy mission in Gaza, hunting down Hamas fighters and the weapons depots where they store their rockets. As expected, Palestinian civilians, among whom Hamas fighters embed themselves, are paying the greatest price.
The Arab-Israel conflict has always provoked global interest, and Canadians too have passionate opinions about it. People are even taking to the streets to express those opinions, as they are entitled to do. What they aren't allowed to do is incite hatred and violence against those who hold a different view.
Some scary things have been happening at pro-Palestinian rallies. These are not so much rallies in support of Palestinians, or even rallies against Israel, as they are rallies against Jews, no matter where they live.
On Wednesday the Canadian Jewish Congress released a video of scenes from recent anti-Israel demonstrations in Canadian cities. Some protesters are heard repeating the medieval anti-Semitic libel that Jews drink blood. One woman is seen yelling, "Jewish child, you're going to f***ing die, Hamas is coming for you." At a rally in Calgary, men were photographed giving the Nazi salute.
And yet at pro-Israel rallies across Canada, speakers consistently express not just support for Israel but sorrow for Palestinian suffering. At an event in Ottawa last week, organized by the local Jewish community, Rabbi Zischa Shaps made sure to include innocent Palestinians in his prayer for all those caught in the conflict.
Meanwhile, back at a pro-Palestinian rally on Jan. 10 in Montreal, people chanted, in Arabic, "Palestine is ours, the Jews are our dogs."
We can only hope that the hatemongers represent the fringe and not the mainstream of pro-Palestinian activists.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen
-------------------------
It is natural that new immigrants will have strong feelings about the goings-on in the old country; it is, after all, their ‘real’ home, it’s where they have kith and kin and memories and, yes, even loyalties. It is also natural that 2nd and even 3rd generation immigrants will be biased about events where ‘grandma’ and ‘auntie’ still live.
But we, Canadians, from everywhere, must try to make the ‘old country’ (all 200± old countries) increasingly foreign.
We should be able to protest events and policies in foreign lands without resort to hate filled racial epithets. Apparently we aren’t.
-------------------------
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/editorials/Hate+comes+town/1182873/story.html
Hate comes to town
THE OTTAWA CITIZEN
JANUARY 16, 2009 7:07 AM
The killing continues, as the Israeli military intensifies its search and destroy mission in Gaza, hunting down Hamas fighters and the weapons depots where they store their rockets. As expected, Palestinian civilians, among whom Hamas fighters embed themselves, are paying the greatest price.
The Arab-Israel conflict has always provoked global interest, and Canadians too have passionate opinions about it. People are even taking to the streets to express those opinions, as they are entitled to do. What they aren't allowed to do is incite hatred and violence against those who hold a different view.
Some scary things have been happening at pro-Palestinian rallies. These are not so much rallies in support of Palestinians, or even rallies against Israel, as they are rallies against Jews, no matter where they live.
On Wednesday the Canadian Jewish Congress released a video of scenes from recent anti-Israel demonstrations in Canadian cities. Some protesters are heard repeating the medieval anti-Semitic libel that Jews drink blood. One woman is seen yelling, "Jewish child, you're going to f***ing die, Hamas is coming for you." At a rally in Calgary, men were photographed giving the Nazi salute.
And yet at pro-Israel rallies across Canada, speakers consistently express not just support for Israel but sorrow for Palestinian suffering. At an event in Ottawa last week, organized by the local Jewish community, Rabbi Zischa Shaps made sure to include innocent Palestinians in his prayer for all those caught in the conflict.
Meanwhile, back at a pro-Palestinian rally on Jan. 10 in Montreal, people chanted, in Arabic, "Palestine is ours, the Jews are our dogs."
We can only hope that the hatemongers represent the fringe and not the mainstream of pro-Palestinian activists.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen
-------------------------
It is natural that new immigrants will have strong feelings about the goings-on in the old country; it is, after all, their ‘real’ home, it’s where they have kith and kin and memories and, yes, even loyalties. It is also natural that 2nd and even 3rd generation immigrants will be biased about events where ‘grandma’ and ‘auntie’ still live.
But we, Canadians, from everywhere, must try to make the ‘old country’ (all 200± old countries) increasingly foreign.
We should be able to protest events and policies in foreign lands without resort to hate filled racial epithets. Apparently we aren’t.
- Reaction score
- 5,962
- Points
- 1,260
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail is another SITEP on the Gaza situation:
-------------------------
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090116.wgaza0116/BNStory/International/home
Gaza fighting slows as Israel counters Hamas offer
NIDAL AL-MUGHRABI
Reuters
January 16, 2009 at 9:21 AM EST
GAZA, Gaza Strip — Israel said its Gaza offensive could be “in the final act” on Friday and sent envoys to discuss truce terms after Hamas made a ceasefire offer to end three weeks of fighting that has killed more than 1,100 Palestinians.
However, Israel rebuffed at least two major elements of the ceasefire terms outlined by the Islamist movement, and fighting continued, albeit with less intensity than on Thursday.
And in Doha, Hamas's exiled leader Khaled Meshaal told Arab leaders his group would not accept Israeli conditions for the ceasefire and would fight on until Israel ended hostilities.
He urged participants at an emergency Arab meeting on Gaza to cut all ties with the Jewish state.
The inauguration of new U.S. President Barack Obama on Tuesday is seen by some as the time by which Israel will bow to mounting international pressure and call off its attacks.
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, touring the region, again said he expected a ceasefire deal within days but urged Israel to stop firing immediately. “It is time now to even think about a unilateral ceasefire,” he said in Ramallah.
At least 13 rockets landed in Israel from Gaza, the army said, slightly wounding one person. Hamas rocket fire has dwindled during the war — which Israel launched on Dec. 27 with the declared aim of crippling Hamas's rocket-firing capacity.
Israeli air strikes killed 10 Palestinians. Among them were guerrillas and civilians, including two children.
“Hopefully we're in the final act,” Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's spokesman Mark Regev said, adding that briefings by the envoys working in Washington and Cairo on Friday could be followed by swift decisions by the security cabinet.
Gazans savoured a relative lull a day after intense combat that some saw as a final Israeli push before a ceasefire.
“The conditions have not come to fruition yet,” security cabinet member Binyamin Ben-Eliezer said. “But this could well happen late on Saturday and we can put this story behind us.”
Israeli planes struck 40 targets in Gaza overnight, but then fighting eased, to the relief of Palestinians stunned by seeing Israeli tanks advancing deep inside Gaza city on Thursday.
Medics taking advantage of a four-hour “humanitarian pause“ said they had recovered 23 bodies on Friday from the previous day's fighting in the Tel al-Hawa neighbourhood in the city's southwest, scene of some of the most intense clashes.
Chanting crowds attended the funeral of a top Hamas leader, Saeed Seyyam, killed in an Israeli air strike along with nine other people. Mr. Seyyam was the interior minister in Gaza's unrecognized government and leader of 13,000 armed security men.
Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, whose prospects in a Feb. 10 election may have been improved by a war that has so far cost 13 Israeli lives, flew overnight to Washington to sign a security agreement with the outgoing administration of George W. Bush that Israel sees underpinning any truce.
Israeli officials said the agreement would commit the United States to lead a campaign with its NATO allies to track and interdict weapons shipments bound for Gaza from Iran and elsewhere. Preventing Hamas from rearming is Israel's main condition for any truce.
Senior Israeli official Amos Gilad arrived in Cairo again on Friday, this time accompanied by Shalom Turgeman, Mr. Olmert's top diplomatic adviser — a possible sign a deal may be near.
“When we are briefed by Gilad and Livni, there may be a full security cabinet meeting and decisions will stem from that,” Mr. Regev said.
Hamas and diplomatic sources said on Thursday that Hamas had offered a one-year, renewable truce on condition that all Israeli forces withdrew within five to seven days and that all the border crossings with Israel and Egypt would be opened.
Israel wants an open-ended truce and the reinstatement of forces loyal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas at crossing points into the Gaza Strip, Israeli and Western sources said.
Except for limited humanitarian supplies, the crossings have been all but closed under an Israeli-led blockade since Hamas seized control of Gaza in 2007 from Mr. Abbas's forces. Hamas had won a Palestinian parliamentary election the previous year.
Asked about the Israeli demands, Hamas official Ayman Taha told Reuters by telephone from Cairo that they had not been presented to Hamas negotiators, who would meet the Egyptians on Saturday to discuss the Israeli response.
Hamas and Fatah are bitterly at odds, adding to Mr. Abbas's many difficulties in negotiating a peace settlement with Israel that would give Palestinians a state in Gaza and the West Bank.
Fearing that the Gaza crisis would spark violence in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, Israel imposed sweeping additional controls on movement and flooded Jerusalem's Old City with armed security personnel during Muslim weekly prayers.
Protests erupted in the West Bank city of Hebron, a Hamas stronghold, where Israeli soldiers killed a 17-year-old Palestinian demonstrator and wounded three others, medics said.
Israeli forces have killed some 1,138 people and wounded 5,100 during the Gaza war, the Hamas-run Health Ministry said.
-------------------------
A unilateral Israeli withdrawal, starting early Tuesday morning, would be a nice inauguration gift to Barack Obama; it would take one big problem off his plate – for a while.
The Israelis can, I think withdraw with near absolute certainty that Hamas (and the Arabs, in general) will fail to exploit the situation. Hamas will not make a ‘peacebuilding’ counter-move – rather it will bluster and fire more rockets, proving to President Obama that Hamas is not, cannot be and does not even want to try to be a ‘partner for peace.’
-------------------------
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090116.wgaza0116/BNStory/International/home
Gaza fighting slows as Israel counters Hamas offer
NIDAL AL-MUGHRABI
Reuters
January 16, 2009 at 9:21 AM EST
GAZA, Gaza Strip — Israel said its Gaza offensive could be “in the final act” on Friday and sent envoys to discuss truce terms after Hamas made a ceasefire offer to end three weeks of fighting that has killed more than 1,100 Palestinians.
However, Israel rebuffed at least two major elements of the ceasefire terms outlined by the Islamist movement, and fighting continued, albeit with less intensity than on Thursday.
And in Doha, Hamas's exiled leader Khaled Meshaal told Arab leaders his group would not accept Israeli conditions for the ceasefire and would fight on until Israel ended hostilities.
He urged participants at an emergency Arab meeting on Gaza to cut all ties with the Jewish state.
The inauguration of new U.S. President Barack Obama on Tuesday is seen by some as the time by which Israel will bow to mounting international pressure and call off its attacks.
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, touring the region, again said he expected a ceasefire deal within days but urged Israel to stop firing immediately. “It is time now to even think about a unilateral ceasefire,” he said in Ramallah.
At least 13 rockets landed in Israel from Gaza, the army said, slightly wounding one person. Hamas rocket fire has dwindled during the war — which Israel launched on Dec. 27 with the declared aim of crippling Hamas's rocket-firing capacity.
Israeli air strikes killed 10 Palestinians. Among them were guerrillas and civilians, including two children.
“Hopefully we're in the final act,” Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's spokesman Mark Regev said, adding that briefings by the envoys working in Washington and Cairo on Friday could be followed by swift decisions by the security cabinet.
Gazans savoured a relative lull a day after intense combat that some saw as a final Israeli push before a ceasefire.
“The conditions have not come to fruition yet,” security cabinet member Binyamin Ben-Eliezer said. “But this could well happen late on Saturday and we can put this story behind us.”
Israeli planes struck 40 targets in Gaza overnight, but then fighting eased, to the relief of Palestinians stunned by seeing Israeli tanks advancing deep inside Gaza city on Thursday.
Medics taking advantage of a four-hour “humanitarian pause“ said they had recovered 23 bodies on Friday from the previous day's fighting in the Tel al-Hawa neighbourhood in the city's southwest, scene of some of the most intense clashes.
Chanting crowds attended the funeral of a top Hamas leader, Saeed Seyyam, killed in an Israeli air strike along with nine other people. Mr. Seyyam was the interior minister in Gaza's unrecognized government and leader of 13,000 armed security men.
Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, whose prospects in a Feb. 10 election may have been improved by a war that has so far cost 13 Israeli lives, flew overnight to Washington to sign a security agreement with the outgoing administration of George W. Bush that Israel sees underpinning any truce.
Israeli officials said the agreement would commit the United States to lead a campaign with its NATO allies to track and interdict weapons shipments bound for Gaza from Iran and elsewhere. Preventing Hamas from rearming is Israel's main condition for any truce.
Senior Israeli official Amos Gilad arrived in Cairo again on Friday, this time accompanied by Shalom Turgeman, Mr. Olmert's top diplomatic adviser — a possible sign a deal may be near.
“When we are briefed by Gilad and Livni, there may be a full security cabinet meeting and decisions will stem from that,” Mr. Regev said.
Hamas and diplomatic sources said on Thursday that Hamas had offered a one-year, renewable truce on condition that all Israeli forces withdrew within five to seven days and that all the border crossings with Israel and Egypt would be opened.
Israel wants an open-ended truce and the reinstatement of forces loyal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas at crossing points into the Gaza Strip, Israeli and Western sources said.
Except for limited humanitarian supplies, the crossings have been all but closed under an Israeli-led blockade since Hamas seized control of Gaza in 2007 from Mr. Abbas's forces. Hamas had won a Palestinian parliamentary election the previous year.
Asked about the Israeli demands, Hamas official Ayman Taha told Reuters by telephone from Cairo that they had not been presented to Hamas negotiators, who would meet the Egyptians on Saturday to discuss the Israeli response.
Hamas and Fatah are bitterly at odds, adding to Mr. Abbas's many difficulties in negotiating a peace settlement with Israel that would give Palestinians a state in Gaza and the West Bank.
Fearing that the Gaza crisis would spark violence in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, Israel imposed sweeping additional controls on movement and flooded Jerusalem's Old City with armed security personnel during Muslim weekly prayers.
Protests erupted in the West Bank city of Hebron, a Hamas stronghold, where Israeli soldiers killed a 17-year-old Palestinian demonstrator and wounded three others, medics said.
Israeli forces have killed some 1,138 people and wounded 5,100 during the Gaza war, the Hamas-run Health Ministry said.
-------------------------
A unilateral Israeli withdrawal, starting early Tuesday morning, would be a nice inauguration gift to Barack Obama; it would take one big problem off his plate – for a while.
The Israelis can, I think withdraw with near absolute certainty that Hamas (and the Arabs, in general) will fail to exploit the situation. Hamas will not make a ‘peacebuilding’ counter-move – rather it will bluster and fire more rockets, proving to President Obama that Hamas is not, cannot be and does not even want to try to be a ‘partner for peace.’
- Reaction score
- 1,359
- Points
- 1,160
Posted by E.R. Campbell
Here is another editorial, this one is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen:
-------------------------
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/editorials/Hate+comes+town/1182873/story.html
Hate comes to town
"But we, Canadians, from everywhere, must try to make the ‘old country’ (all 200± old countries) increasingly foreign".
"We should be able to protest events and policies in foreign lands without resort to hate filled racial epithets. Apparently we aren’t".
Absolutely right, but, years of multiculturalism, which to me is immigrate to Canada, bring all your hates and prejudices, and taxpayers will subsidize it; no melting pot for Canada has created several generations of hate in Canada's citizens.
Here is another editorial, this one is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen:
-------------------------
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/editorials/Hate+comes+town/1182873/story.html
Hate comes to town
"But we, Canadians, from everywhere, must try to make the ‘old country’ (all 200± old countries) increasingly foreign".
"We should be able to protest events and policies in foreign lands without resort to hate filled racial epithets. Apparently we aren’t".
Absolutely right, but, years of multiculturalism, which to me is immigrate to Canada, bring all your hates and prejudices, and taxpayers will subsidize it; no melting pot for Canada has created several generations of hate in Canada's citizens.
- Reaction score
- 6,428
- Points
- 1,360
Rifleman62 said:
I disagree. The number of moronic protesters at these events are just a tiny fraction of those whom have immigrated here. Its just the same old, same old story,.....................ten protesters will get more media coverage, and thereby, seem more important than the ten thousand who just wish both sides would work it out peacefully.
If only the media would stop sticking these morons in our face, cause, IMO, it ain't news.
- Reaction score
- 4,170
- Points
- 1,260
E.R. Campbell said:
TWO gifts, really, since I agree with your assessment of Hamas' reaction (in addition to telling all and sundry about their "victory")....
- Reaction score
- 8,209
- Points
- 1,160
Bruce Monkhouse said:
And along the lines of "How long is a piece of string?".....How many protesters does it take to make a crowd? As many as it takes to fill a camera lens - 3 or 3.000,000: it doesn't matter as long as the screen is full.
- Reaction score
- 5,962
- Points
- 1,260
Quite right!
Last Spring (Apr/May, I guess), during the ramp-up of the pre-Olympics Pro-Tibet/Anti-China campaign I walked up to Parliament Hill to see how the Pro-China demonstration (on a Sat or Sun) would turn out.
My guess was that there were 3,500 people there – a police officer guesstimated 5,000 ; but it was more than just a few, anyway. There were plenty of flags (Canadian and PRC) and signs, banners and T shirts – professionally made with the “One world/one China” theme and lots of songs and cute kids and a couple of terminally boring speeches). All in all it was a happy-go-lucky sort of event. No one even bothered the ever present Falun Gong demonstrators.
But a little (maybe 10 people, maybe fewer), ragtag band of Caucasian kids (late teens/early 20s) showed up with anti-China/pro-Tibet signs and Tibetan flags. No problem, because the police confined them to the public sidewalk and the Chinese people were happy to obey their marshals and stay on the other side of the fence that separates the ‘Hill’ from the ‘town.’ They chanted and shouted for a bit but, after about 10 minutes, the police escorted them down towards the Chateau Laurier, well away from the Chinese demonstration, and that was last anyone saw of them – until the evening news when they got at least equal time on at least two of the Ottawa TV News broadcasts and where their image did, indeed fill a TV screen an give the impression that it might have been a large, organized ‘counter demonstration.’ One of those local TV ‘news’ spots made it to the national news but further edited so that it seemed that there was pro-Tibet demonstration in Ottawa that might have been countered by a few Chinese up on the ‘Hill.’
Last Spring (Apr/May, I guess), during the ramp-up of the pre-Olympics Pro-Tibet/Anti-China campaign I walked up to Parliament Hill to see how the Pro-China demonstration (on a Sat or Sun) would turn out.
My guess was that there were 3,500 people there – a police officer guesstimated 5,000 ; but it was more than just a few, anyway. There were plenty of flags (Canadian and PRC) and signs, banners and T shirts – professionally made with the “One world/one China” theme and lots of songs and cute kids and a couple of terminally boring speeches). All in all it was a happy-go-lucky sort of event. No one even bothered the ever present Falun Gong demonstrators.
But a little (maybe 10 people, maybe fewer), ragtag band of Caucasian kids (late teens/early 20s) showed up with anti-China/pro-Tibet signs and Tibetan flags. No problem, because the police confined them to the public sidewalk and the Chinese people were happy to obey their marshals and stay on the other side of the fence that separates the ‘Hill’ from the ‘town.’ They chanted and shouted for a bit but, after about 10 minutes, the police escorted them down towards the Chateau Laurier, well away from the Chinese demonstration, and that was last anyone saw of them – until the evening news when they got at least equal time on at least two of the Ottawa TV News broadcasts and where their image did, indeed fill a TV screen an give the impression that it might have been a large, organized ‘counter demonstration.’ One of those local TV ‘news’ spots made it to the national news but further edited so that it seemed that there was pro-Tibet demonstration in Ottawa that might have been countered by a few Chinese up on the ‘Hill.’
- Reaction score
- 6,428
- Points
- 1,360
Yes Edward,.....I do seem to recall you showing me the "markings" where the press and the "protesters" get together to make sure the backdrop/ sizing/signage is juuuuuuust right.
Damn, someday we will have to make that walk unhungover. ;D
Damn, someday we will have to make that walk unhungover. ;D
- Reaction score
- 4,170
- Points
- 1,260
Highlights of a few ideas on how to deal with the tunnels....
Holey War
How to close the Gaza tunnels
William Saletan, Slate, 16 Jan 09
Article link
More details on link
Holey War
How to close the Gaza tunnels
William Saletan, Slate, 16 Jan 09
Article link
More details on link
- Reaction score
- 4,170
- Points
- 1,260
And what happens when ISR declares a unilateral ceasefire? (.pdf of statement attached in case link doesn't work or takes too long to load)
This, this and this....
- edited to include better ceasefire link, add attachment -
This, this and this....
- edited to include better ceasefire link, add attachment -
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
tourza said:
Tourza,
Youtube is being used to stage lots of propaganda wars. However, I'm not saying the particular clips you provided are not legit. I haven't reasearched them so I can't say one way or the other. On the other hand, I would say they are questionable. But here's a clip from Jihad Watch titled "Whitewashing History Before Our Eyes" that is in the Palestinian's own words. The video is a direct claim that they do indeed use children, women and the elderly as human shields. You'll note that it disappeared shortly after it's release (sometime in December 2008). Fortunately, people saw fit to save it.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024431.php
(Edit: Sorry for entering the discussion so late folks but this thread is a good, long read.)
BTW, you have to scroll down the page to actually see the saved video.
- Reaction score
- 1,288
- Points
- 940
Israel pulling out of Gaza
Article Link Canoe News
JERUSALEM - Israel plans to pull all of its troops out of the Gaza Strip by the time President-elect Barack Obama is inaugurated Tuesday, but only if Hamas militants hold their fire, Israeli officials said.
Thousands of troops have left Gaza since Israel declared Saturday its intention to unilaterally halt fire after a devastating, three-week Israeli onslaught. Gaza's Hamas rulers ceased fire 12 hours later. Large contingents of Israeli soldiers have kept close to the border, prepared to re-enter the territory if violence re-ignites.
More on link
Israel plans quick pullout from Gaza Strip
Article Link CBC News
Israeli officials indicated Monday that troops will rapidly pull out of the Gaza Strip after declaring a ceasefire in the three-week-long offensive.
Unnamed sources told the Associated Press that soldiers will leave the Hamas-run territory before the Tuesday morning inauguration of U.S. president-elect Barack Obama.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev wouldn't confirm the timetable, but said that if the coastal strip of land remains quiet then Israel's departure will be "almost immediate."
Israel declared a unilateral ceasefire on Saturday in its 22-day-old assault on Hamas, saying the objective of disabling Hamas's military capabilities had been achieved.
On Sunday Hamas leadership announced a one-week ceasefire and called for Israel to use that time to withdraw its forces and open all border crossings in the territory.
The conflict killed more than 1,200 Palestinians and 13 Israelis.
More on link
Article Link Canoe News
JERUSALEM - Israel plans to pull all of its troops out of the Gaza Strip by the time President-elect Barack Obama is inaugurated Tuesday, but only if Hamas militants hold their fire, Israeli officials said.
Thousands of troops have left Gaza since Israel declared Saturday its intention to unilaterally halt fire after a devastating, three-week Israeli onslaught. Gaza's Hamas rulers ceased fire 12 hours later. Large contingents of Israeli soldiers have kept close to the border, prepared to re-enter the territory if violence re-ignites.
More on link
Israel plans quick pullout from Gaza Strip
Article Link CBC News
Israeli officials indicated Monday that troops will rapidly pull out of the Gaza Strip after declaring a ceasefire in the three-week-long offensive.
Unnamed sources told the Associated Press that soldiers will leave the Hamas-run territory before the Tuesday morning inauguration of U.S. president-elect Barack Obama.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev wouldn't confirm the timetable, but said that if the coastal strip of land remains quiet then Israel's departure will be "almost immediate."
Israel declared a unilateral ceasefire on Saturday in its 22-day-old assault on Hamas, saying the objective of disabling Hamas's military capabilities had been achieved.
On Sunday Hamas leadership announced a one-week ceasefire and called for Israel to use that time to withdraw its forces and open all border crossings in the territory.
The conflict killed more than 1,200 Palestinians and 13 Israelis.
More on link
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Fresh from the G & M:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090129.wgazaschool29/BNStory/International/home
Interesting how the story evolved and how quick some were to condemn Israel (on this particular issue).
cheers,
Frank
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090129.wgazaschool29/BNStory/International/home
Interesting how the story evolved and how quick some were to condemn Israel (on this particular issue).
cheers,
Frank
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