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Israeli Palestinian conflict

ggm

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The Conflict


Goals in war, much like goals in life need to be carefully assessed, pragmatically. It is often that the outcome of an operation is mistaken for its purpose, and vis a versa. It is the outcome which should the  concern of all involved in the planning  of a military operation. Perplexing, this requires not only knowledge of oneself, to understand the motives and reasons for ones actions, but most importantly knowledge of ones opponent's culture, psychology and behaviour to predict their response. This has the dual effect of both humanizing one's opponent and crafting more successful operations. Leaders like Nelson Mandela triumphed in part because they immersed themselves in their opponent's culture.
The bombing of Israeli youths on vacation in Bulgarian, before their entering military service is a case in point. It was a carefully crafted operation meant to strike at the heart of the Israeli (and Jewish) people, their youth. It sent a message that no place is safe for Israelis and that reprisals by the Muslim world are a fact of life. The outcome of this action could only be an escalation of violence in the middle east and the world as a whole. The families of the dead can only be more embittered and less inclined to rational or peaceful action. The world was made a darker place thereby. What retaliation by the Israeli government can only be guessed at, but with every act of bitter violence they to are pushed to more extremes.

Whatever the plight of the Palestinian people, I can only feel they are being manipulated by the  pan Muslim extremist groups. Palestinian military operations can have one and only one goal. How does this operation advance us towards a Palestinian homeland? Extremists, increasing the levels of hate and anger on both sides does little towards helping the Palestinian people. Some say that by using children as bombs, targeting Jews anywhere anytime, is a sign of their resolve. I wonder if this is not  a sign of weakness.

It can be said that old men start wars, while young men pay for them. Perhaps it is time for the Palestinian camp to focus more on the old men (political leaders). Even though this is more difficult, it is a question of advancing their cause, not bringing the world to a greater level of instability. If it is retaliation that is the purpose: it must be very carefully crafted, because, as the saying goes, if revenge is your goal, remember to dig two graves: one for your enemy and one for yourself (or your family and friends as the case may be). 

Gosho Mladenoff
 
I am curious as to what your objection to the article is Campbell.
As a close friend of mine said re: the Afghanistan conflict, the battlefield is not the terrain like in WW2, but the populace. It is the people who are being fought over.

Gosho Mladenoff
 
Is it just me, or does there seem to be a complete loss of memory when it comes to the Middle East conflicts in general, and the Israeli / Palestinian conflict in particular?
 
No, there is a seemingly endless loss of memory on both sides of the conflict.
 
ggm said:
The Conflict


.......How does this operation advance us towards a Palestinian homeland?........
Gosho Mladenoff

I edited this to take out this question in particular.  Hopefully I don't hijack this topic.  But I have to ask.  what advance to a Palestinian homeland?  Hamas has Jew killing in their charter...  You can't request peace then in the same sentence say we are going to kill you all.  Which is what Hamas is doing.  I'm not saying Israel is innocent.  But come on.  Everyone knows this is ridiculous.  You can get the charter online simply by google it "hamas charter".
 
Something I have always felt uncomfortable about Islam is their bias and antagonism towards Jews in their scriptures. Having the killing of people in the charter is a suicide pact, not a goal of attaining statehood or advancing the state of one's citizen's. You are correct, this doesn't advance the cause of the Palestinian people.
My father was involved at a young age with the Bulgarian Macedonian and Serbian conflict of the 20th century. Early on, the losing Bulgarian movement realized  that they had to take steps and have contingency plans  for not only winning the conflict, but also for losing the conflict. Hamas must realize that its not enough to plan for victory or revenge, but for shielding its people in the conflict. Blind revenge is not a military strategy, but an expression of  powerlessness and loss. Long term planning is a requirement for even small victories, which often occur in the political arena.
Even the Bulgarians today are surprised at their position of political ascendancy in the Macedonian diaspora today, almost a full century away from their losses in the 1912 war. This could not be achieved with revenge as a goal.

Gosho Mladenoff 
 
I believe the problem point of view and being the product of our surroundings.  I work with a lot of different people and met and discussed views with many Muslims from the middle east living here in Canada.

There is a disconnect even with in their own culture.  In the span of one week, I met 3 different Muslim families.

#1 was the hardline type.  His wife wasn't allowed to speak and tried to remain hidden out of sight
#2 I only met the man, he was wearing the robes, sheets whatever you call it, he tried to blend into Canadian ways
#3 the female Muslim took care of business, and the man stayed out of sight.

They all come from the same tree but 3 different outcomes.  I caulk it up to point of view.  The first guy I refuse to do business with, I don't trust him.  I equate him to what Hamas does.  The latter two I don't care nothing to worry about.

I think if you are full of hate inside, Islam is a great scape goat for your negative goals,  but the others who are not try to use Islam for positive goals.  I find much hate in Hamas.

For the record, I'm not religious, my opinion is indifferent if we were talking about other faith groups.
In short I believe if Palestine ever wants to get anywhere with their land situation, They have to stop hating Jewish culture and adapt.
 
Like it or not, the Israelis and Palestinians (and their Arab neighbors)  have to come to terms with each other. They are neighbors and nothing in the foreseeable future is going to change that. As to the different types of religious fervor or secularism you are correct that this is not a problem limited to the middle east conflict, but has world wide dimensions for which I have no answer for.

Gosho
 
Gosho,

I'm curious, are you the same Gosho Mladenoff who is associated with the Macedonian Patriotic Organization or the Macedonian Tribune?
 
There are two of us. George Mladenoff my father and myself Gosho (the bulgarian name for george) Mladenoff.

My father runs the Macedonian Patriotic Organization "Luben Dimitroff" in Toronto Canada.

The Macedonian Tribune (newspaper )has gone through several evolutions. My father, myself and others publish a number of web pages amongst one of them is makedonskatribuna.com a historical webpage focusing on the balkan region and the Macedonian Question. It is mostly in bulgarian but there are often some articles in english.

Gosho

next is a article I wrote shortly after the bombing in Burgas Bulgaria when I was in a particularly cynical mood.
 
No Pogroms Since Yesterday....

Well it's official, on the 18th of July 2012, Bulgaria got taken off the list of neutral safe havens, by a bomb blast that killed several Israeli tourists. The Israeli Prime Minister vowed retaliation, as if the conflict could be intensified any further. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is spiralling back down to 1970s -1980s levels: open season on anyone anywhere. This conflict is about two peoples locked in a never ending struggle, with each choking the life out of the other. The last best hope for peace in the region: Yizak Rabin, was gunned down before he could finish his work, much like Martin Luther King or JFK. Killed for saying that peace had a chance in the region. One wonders whether the region can bear fifty years before another Yizak comes along.
Even basic steps like both sides agreeing to a no women no children policy would go far to reducing the cauldron of hate that is boiling over in that region. But even small steps are unlikely to be taken as there are factions on both sides which have to much of a vested interest in conflict.

But my concern is not so much with the conflict itself, which generates thousands of refugees for Canada (most of whom just seek a safe haven), each year, but with the spreading of the conflict outside of the region.. The conflict can only be influenced minutely by individuals outside of it. The danger is that in this war, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If Bulgaria cannot be a safe haven for one, it cannot be a safe haven for the other.

As for Bulgaria, any one who has survived the conflict on either side will understand the cynicism of this next allegory:

Factory Safety Inspector: ”Tomorrow we take down the sign that says no pogroms in over 100 years (since the ruling Turks of the Ottoman Empire left Bulgaria) and we replace it with the sign that says no pogroms since yesterday” 




G Mladenov

 
The Palestinians as useful pawns has been a obvious fact for many years, in fact the camps and the conditions they live in are manufactured by the Arab states who for the most part have not offered citizenship or cared particularly about the living conditions there. Israel was a useful lightening rod to let ME and Islamic citizens vent their frustration about their own situations. The usefulness of the Palestinians and Israel for this purpose are coming to an end and poor choices by Palestinian leaders in choosing the wrong sides will hasten that. just look at what happend to the Palestinians in Iraq after the fall of Saddam.
 
I'm vaguely curious why this is posted under "News" rather than Radio Chatter; I've seen nothing newsworthy posted yet.

      :boring:
 
Really, I thought a posting under Propaganda would be more accurate!  Since the individual seems to be speaking for an organization rather than as an individual.
 
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