Jagmeet Singh, probably the biggest political loser?

[brihard]

Or they will discover, as we have, that the better dentists aren't part of the programme and you have to line up for those that are.

Yup, long way to go with it yet.

But also, there are a lot of Canadians pretty messed up in the mouth who will have access to primary dental care for the first time in a long time or ever. Few members of this particular website are likely to be able to relate to a total lack of dental care. If they can improve delivery, it’s a good policy.

 

[ArmyRick]

Yup, long way to go with it yet.

But also, there are a lot of Canadians pretty messed up in the mouth who will have access to primary dental care for the first time in a long time or ever. Few members of this particular website are likely to be able to relate to a total lack of dental care. If they can improve delivery, it’s a good policy.

I think you may want to have a closer look
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/de...s-support-canadian-dental-care-plan-1.7261065

Why Are Dentists Frustrated About the Canadian Federal Dental Plan? - Savanna Dental

Dentists Across Canada Have Been Left Frustrated About the Canadian Federal Dental Plan. Click the Link To Know More

savannadentalclinic.ca

National dental program leaves the vulnerable behind, critics say - Healthy Debate

The federal government is about to embark on the largest investment in oral health in Canadian history. But critics say it may not reach the people who need it most.

healthydebate.ca

Dental providers aren't smiling about reimbursement under federal plan

Some dentists and hygienists fear they won't be fairly paid for services under a new federal dental plan, and they worry it will jeopardize the success of the massive program.

www.cp24.com

Dentists hesitant to sign up for federal dental plan; seniors advised to look at all options | Globalnews.ca

The Alberta Dental Association said dentists need further clarity on the new Canadian Dental Care Plan before they sign up to treat patients.

globalnews.ca

Federal government needs to clear up confusion about Canadian Dental Care Plan - Ontario Dental Association

The CDCP isn’t free from cost and red tape February 8, 2024 – Dentists know that the Canadian Dental Care Plan (CDCP) is a major opportunity to provide oral health care to millions of people who have been unable to access the care they need. However, seniors and other eligible Canadian residents...

www.oda.ca

I think your rose coloured glasses view of this gong show needs adjustment. The LPC and NDP throw this shitshow together and from what I understand, it is "not as advertised". And if it totally falls apart and a future government (the CPC) has to gut it or get rid of it, the LPC and NDP will be screaming bloody murder.

Bottom line don't put forward a social bribe, er oops, I mean a social program unless its at least sustainable.

 

[brihard]

I think you may want to have a closer look
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/de...s-support-canadian-dental-care-plan-1.7261065

Why Are Dentists Frustrated About the Canadian Federal Dental Plan? - Savanna Dental

Dentists Across Canada Have Been Left Frustrated About the Canadian Federal Dental Plan. Click the Link To Know More

savannadentalclinic.ca

National dental program leaves the vulnerable behind, critics say - Healthy Debate

The federal government is about to embark on the largest investment in oral health in Canadian history. But critics say it may not reach the people who need it most.

healthydebate.ca

Dental providers aren't smiling about reimbursement under federal plan

Some dentists and hygienists fear they won't be fairly paid for services under a new federal dental plan, and they worry it will jeopardize the success of the massive program.

www.cp24.com

Dentists hesitant to sign up for federal dental plan; seniors advised to look at all options | Globalnews.ca

The Alberta Dental Association said dentists need further clarity on the new Canadian Dental Care Plan before they sign up to treat patients.

globalnews.ca

Federal government needs to clear up confusion about Canadian Dental Care Plan - Ontario Dental Association

The CDCP isn’t free from cost and red tape February 8, 2024 – Dentists know that the Canadian Dental Care Plan (CDCP) is a major opportunity to provide oral health care to millions of people who have been unable to access the care they need. However, seniors and other eligible Canadian residents...

www.oda.ca

I think your rose coloured glasses view of this gong show needs adjustment. The LPC and NDP throw this shitshow together and from what I understand, it is "not as advertised". And if it totally falls apart and a future government (the CPC) has to gut it or get rid of it, the LPC and NDP will be screaming bloody murder.

Bottom line don't put forward a social bribe, er oops, I mean a social program unless its at least sustainable.

I expect all those same criticisms were raised when Canada first saw universal healthcare.

I never suggested this will be a simple or easy thing to achieve, and I specifically said both “long way to go with it yet”, and “if they can improve delivery”. You helpfully quoted both of those things that I said.

I you think I’m looking at this through some rose coloured glasses, please tell me what words I’ve actually said that support that. Remember that the context of the conversation is “stuff they could still use most of a year to improve on”.

 

[ArmyRick]

But also, there are a lot of Canadians pretty messed up in the mouth who will have access to primary dental care for the first time in a long time or ever.

So why introduce a program half assed that most likely won't be there in a year or two? It was a political bribe, nothing more.

could still use most of a year to improve on

Hopefully they don't get a year and we see a general election.

Dude, you and the usual crowd are grasping at straws, badly. This government deserves no political mercy whatsoever. NONE. Zilch. The sooner it gets put to out of its misery, the better.

Trudeau and Singh can go figure out what to do with the rest of their lives while their parties try to claw out of the graves. The CPC and the Bloc will get on with governing. And its gonna be a tough couple of years/decades. I said it before and I will say it again (for people who don't get it), The Trudeau LPC is going to experience the Katherine Wynne effect next election (and judging by Trudeau's refusal to face the truth, its gonna be really ugly)

 

[daftandbarmy]

I expect all those same criticisms were raised when Canada first saw universal healthcare.

I never suggested this will be a simple or easy thing to achieve, and I specifically said both “long way to go with it yet”, and “if they can improve delivery”. You helpfully quoted both of those things that I said.

I you think I’m looking at this through some rose coloured glasses, please tell me what words I’ve actually said that support that. Remember that the context of the conversation is “stuff they could still use most of a year to improve on”.

The UK has had national dental care for decades. There are some interesting challenges with that, of course....

Pliers, abscesses and agonising pain: Britain’s dental crisis – as seen from A&E​

With ‘dental deserts’ all over the UK, hundreds of thousands of people now flock to hospitals or GPs each year for treatment. And the problem is only getting worse

When Lucy finally found a dentist that would accept NHS patients, she asked if she could join with her family. She lives in Devon with her husband and two children and none have access to an NHS dentist. “They said no,” she says. “So I asked them to take my children, not me or my husband, but they said they couldn’t take the children without an adult.” But they weren’t taking new adult patients, either.

Routine private checkups are too expensive, so they opt only for urgent care, and only to the level they can afford. She has just paid £400 to have a tooth pulled – she could have had a filling, but that would have cost £500 and she couldn’t justify the extra expense. “My children not having a dentist really worries me. I nag them a lot to brush their teeth. What’s the alternative?”

Lucy is right to worry. Tooth decay is the biggest primary cause of NHS hospital admissions for children in England aged between five and 17, as 40% of children no longer have access to regular dental appointments. Between April 2022 and May 2023, 30,000 children and more than 70,000 adults in England were admitted to A&E with tooth decay. As Matthew Taylor, chief executive of the NHS Confederation, said last year: “Accident and emergency departments are overflowing with people in severe dental distress.”

Pliers, abscesses and agonising pain: Britain’s dental crisis – as seen from A&E

With ‘dental deserts’ all over the UK, hundreds of thousands of people now flock to hospitals or GPs each year for treatment. And the problem is only getting worse

www.theguardian.com

 

[GR66]

The UK has had national dental care for decades. There are some interesting challenges with that, of course....

Pliers, abscesses and agonising pain: Britain’s dental crisis – as seen from A&E​

With ‘dental deserts’ all over the UK, hundreds of thousands of people now flock to hospitals or GPs each year for treatment. And the problem is only getting worse

When Lucy finally found a dentist that would accept NHS patients, she asked if she could join with her family. She lives in Devon with her husband and two children and none have access to an NHS dentist. “They said no,” she says. “So I asked them to take my children, not me or my husband, but they said they couldn’t take the children without an adult.” But they weren’t taking new adult patients, either.

Routine private checkups are too expensive, so they opt only for urgent care, and only to the level they can afford. She has just paid £400 to have a tooth pulled – she could have had a filling, but that would have cost £500 and she couldn’t justify the extra expense. “My children not having a dentist really worries me. I nag them a lot to brush their teeth. What’s the alternative?”

Lucy is right to worry. Tooth decay is the biggest primary cause of NHS hospital admissions for children in England aged between five and 17, as 40% of children no longer have access to regular dental appointments. Between April 2022 and May 2023, 30,000 children and more than 70,000 adults in England were admitted to A&E with tooth decay. As Matthew Taylor, chief executive of the NHS Confederation, said last year: “Accident and emergency departments are overflowing with people in severe dental distress.”

Pliers, abscesses and agonising pain: Britain’s dental crisis – as seen from A&E

With ‘dental deserts’ all over the UK, hundreds of thousands of people now flock to hospitals or GPs each year for treatment. And the problem is only getting worse

www.theguardian.com

Shocking! Who knew there was a dental crisis in the UK???

 

[brihard]

So why introduce a program half assed that most likely won't be there in a year or two? It was a political bribe, nothing more.

That’s how Westminster politics work. In a minority government you have to buy support with policy consensus. Why do it? Because it probably will be here in a year. There’s no compelling reason to think that in just twelve months we will see NDP and Bloc both abandon the current government, AND an election, AND a new government forms, AND the conservatives introduce new legislation to repeal pharmacists and dental care. Two years? Sure. But not one. So why do it? Because if LPC and NDP can get these things in place and up and running, then the CPC have to eat the political cost of reversing those policies. It lets NDP and LPC campaign on “the Conservatives will cut healthcare benefits for low income Canadians!” And then after CPC win and, in all likelihood, do exactly that, it becomes fodder for the 2029 election.

Hopefully they don't get a year and we see a general election.

So you say that, but then you say this:

Dude, you and the usual crowd are grasping at straws, badly. This government deserves no political mercy whatsoever. NONE. Zilch. The sooner it gets put to out of its misery, the better.

I’m well aware of your views and your hopes. You hope - quite reasonably - for an election soon. I have simply said that’s unlikely for strategic reasons. You have yet to explain convincingly, ever, why you think it would actually be in the best interest of the NDP and the Bloc to both prematurely pull the plug on a minority government where they can exert influence, in exchange for a highly likely majority where they will be inconsequential.

Poilievre is in all likelihood going to win a solid majority in the next election. He’ll probably win another election after that, quite possibly a second majority. I have no illusions on that, and everything I say in this thread is predicated on that.

Trudeau and Singh can go figure out what to do with the rest of their lives while their parties try to claw out of the graves. The CPC and the Bloc will get on with governing. And its gonna be a tough couple of years/decades. I said it before and I will say it again (for people who don't get it), The Trudeau LPC is going to experience the Katherine Wynne effect next election (and judging by Trudeau's refusal to face the truth, its gonna be really ugly)

You want the current government gone. I get it. Lots of us do, me included- even if I feel dismal about the other prospects. You will get what you want, probably in late 2025. You’re just going to have to accept some delayed gratification; what you want simply doesn’t line up with the parliamentary math and political strategy.

 

[dimsum]

So why introduce a program half assed that most likely won't be there in a year or two? It was a political bribe, nothing more.

So, programs should only be introduced in the first year of a majority govt?

Makes it easy to time, at least.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yeah but that’s pretty much baked in at this point absent something really wild happening. NDP will remain focused on achieving what they can policy wise while they’re still able to. Why would they do anything different?

My point was they are burning up victories tomorrow for boondoggles today. Its like the LPC and NDP are only looking as far as this sitting of parliament and thats it.

Or they will discover, as we have, that the better dentists aren't part of the programme and you have to line up for those that are.

I thought tiers 2 - 10 of dentists joined the CAF ?

 

[dimsum]

My point was they are burning up victories tomorrow for boondoggles today. Its like the LPC and NDP are only looking as far as this sitting of parliament and thats it.



I thought tiers 2 - 10 of dentists joined the CAF ?

As someone who has relatives in that profession, they may* make far more money on the outside but like doctors, it is easier (less stress) in the CAF.

* not always guaranteed

 

[Halifax Tar]

As someone who has relatives in that profession, they may* make far more money on the outside but like doctors, it is easier (less stress) in the CAF.

* not always guaranteed

 

[brihard]

My point was they are burning up victories tomorrow for boondoggles today. Its like the LPC and NDP are only looking as far as this sitting of parliament and thats it.



I thought tiers 2 - 10 of dentists joined the CAF ?

What victories tomorrow? They’re staring down almost certainly four and potentially eight years of majority government that won’t work with them. More of a “bird in the hand versus two in the bush” situation if you’re the NDP.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I think you may want to have a closer look
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/de...s-support-canadian-dental-care-plan-1.7261065

Why Are Dentists Frustrated About the Canadian Federal Dental Plan? - Savanna Dental

Dentists Across Canada Have Been Left Frustrated About the Canadian Federal Dental Plan. Click the Link To Know More

savannadentalclinic.ca

National dental program leaves the vulnerable behind, critics say - Healthy Debate

The federal government is about to embark on the largest investment in oral health in Canadian history. But critics say it may not reach the people who need it most.

healthydebate.ca

Dental providers aren't smiling about reimbursement under federal plan

Some dentists and hygienists fear they won't be fairly paid for services under a new federal dental plan, and they worry it will jeopardize the success of the massive program.

www.cp24.com

Dentists hesitant to sign up for federal dental plan; seniors advised to look at all options | Globalnews.ca

The Alberta Dental Association said dentists need further clarity on the new Canadian Dental Care Plan before they sign up to treat patients.

globalnews.ca

Federal government needs to clear up confusion about Canadian Dental Care Plan - Ontario Dental Association

The CDCP isn’t free from cost and red tape February 8, 2024 – Dentists know that the Canadian Dental Care Plan (CDCP) is a major opportunity to provide oral health care to millions of people who have been unable to access the care they need. However, seniors and other eligible Canadian residents...

www.oda.ca

I think your rose coloured glasses view of this gong show needs adjustment. The LPC and NDP throw this shitshow together and from what I understand, it is "not as advertised". And if it totally falls apart and a future government (the CPC) has to gut it or get rid of it, the LPC and NDP will be screaming bloody murder.

Bottom line don't put forward a social bribe, er oops, I mean a social program unless its at least sustainable.

I did have a closer look. What caught my attention was that those articles were dated between Nov 2023 and early Apr 2024, all written in the early stages of the program. Yes, there was considerable negative opinion back then, a lot of it from who would be considered the usual suspects. Some of it was probably to be expected, especially from dental associations (who represent dentists) who may have a reputation of being more concerned about the benefits for their members over that of potential patients. One of the main points that they were making was that few dentists would sign up as providers because reimbursement may not match their current rates. Out here in Alberta there was a particularly negative response, not just on the part of the association but also the prov gov't. But there have been administrative tweaks since.

I was thus surprised about a month ago when I was in for a regular dental appointment and as I was discussing the timing for my next appointment with the hygienist (remaining units, upcoming change from Sun Life to Canada Life, etc being factors) that she brought up the CDCP. She assumed, as I was in the target age range for initial enrollees, that it would be a factor in the planning. It did not seem to be a negative to her. Interestingly, when I googled to find more recent articles about the CDCP, there were numerous dental clinic sites actively advertising for CDCP enrollees, including the dental office where I'm currently a patient.

As for participation by service providers, the original scepticism may not be as warranted as voiced.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-dental-care-plan-update-august-2024-1.7286318

More than 70% of dentists now accepting patients through Canadian Dental Care Plan​

Participation jumped after Ottawa allowed dentists to submit individual insurance claims without signing up

'We've seen an explosion': 75 per cent of Canadian dental care providers now partaking in federal plan

More than 2.3 million Canadians have been approved to receive coverage, and now more than 75 per cent of dental care providers are now participating in the federal government's dental-care program.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[Cloud Cover]

Still can’t get my 83 year old mom enrolled because she has a plan that I pay for.
In BC, seniors benefits are means tested by household income and the cut off threshold is very low. So for most seniors, they will never see this benefit.

 

[Halifax Tar]

What victories tomorrow? They’re staring down almost certainly four and potentially eight years of majority government that won’t work with them. More of a “bird in the hand versus two in the bush” situation if you’re the NDP.

And I think their short sighted 'victories' like the boondgle of firearms control and dental policy is the kind of short term thinking that is costing them. It plays to their base, but doesn't expand their base.

For the NDP, their latching to the LPC; and even seeming still so although unofficial, looks like it could cost them in the long term.

Its two parties thinking about tomorrow, and not further out. Perhaps that's just a common symptom of all Governing parties when the end is neigh.

 

[ArmyRick]

So, programs should only be introduced in the first year of a majority govt?

Again, you rush to say something I never did. Its why you suck at debating.

CPC have cooperated with the governing party (ies) on several votes, it doesn't have to be a majority.

This was not sustainable and it was known from the beginning. Why do you think the LPC stalled it out until a year ish before election? Political stunts and bribes.

You miss the MAJOR points so badly (or you willfully ignore them), the LPC has green slush fund, arrivescam boondoggle, Mckinsey consultants fees in the hundreds of millions and blew up the federal public work sector immensely. They have blown through cash so badly that the dental program was really not an option at this time.

 

[dimsum]

Again, you rush to say something I never did. Its why you suck at debating.

CPC have cooperated with the governing party (ies) on several votes, it doesn't have to be a majority.

This was not sustainable and it was known from the beginning. Why do you think the LPC stalled it out until a year ish before election? Political stunts and bribes.

You miss the MAJOR points so badly (or you willfully ignore them), the LPC has green slush fund, arrivescam boondoggle, Mckinsey consultants fees in the hundreds of millions and blew up the federal public work sector immensely. They have blown through cash so badly that the dental program was really not an option at this time.

I’d suggest that @Blackadder1916 ’s post may disagree.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Way back, 50ish years ago or so, I was doing a uni course by extension and I went down to the NDHQ library looking for a hint or two from the nice librarians. Oh, said one of them: "oral health and the enlistment" and she came back with a handful of books - enough for a respectable bibliography.

In 1939 the Canadian (and British) Army expected to reject a lot of applicants for various health reasons. Both armies were shocked at the very high rate of rejection due to poor oral health.

As it happened, dental care was one of the very first "optionals" that was put aside when times got really tough and, in the late summer of 1939, many young men aged about 19 had not seen a dentist for almost 10 years.

People still kept going to the doctor when they could afford it but the dentist just became something for the employed and upper classes.

 

[dimsum]

Way back, 50ish years ago or so, I was doing a uni course by extension and I went down to the NDHQ library looking for a hint or two from the nice librarians. Oh, said one of them: "oral health and the enlistment" and she came back with a handful of books - enough for a respectable bibliography.

In 1939 the Canadian (and British) Army expected to reject a lot of applicants for various health reasons. Both armies were shocked at the very high rate of rejection due to poor oral health.

As it happened, dental care was one of the very first "optionals" that was put aside when times got really tough and, in the late summer of 1939, many young men aged about 19 had not seen a dentist for almost 10 years.

People still kept going to the doctor when they could afford it but the dentist just became something for the employed and upper classes.

Hell, this is a current issue in the US.

Oral Health Facts

Learn more about oral health topics from CDC.

www.cdc.gov

• On average, 34 million school hours are lost each year because of unplanned (emergency) dental care, and over $45 billion in US productivity is lost each year due to untreated dental disease.

 

[ArmyRick]

Hell, this is a current issue in the US.

Oral Health Facts

Learn more about oral health topics from CDC.

www.cdc.gov

• On average, 34 million school hours are lost each year because of unplanned (emergency) dental care, and over $45 billion in US productivity is lost each year due to untreated dental disease.

Read his response and yours, pay attention very carefully.

I don't doubt that dental care is essential but I also think shelter, clothing, food and potable water are essential.

WHO is going to pay for it? HOW is it being paid for? You can't answer that. Damn the consequences, make it happen. The more money the LPC spends that we don't have, the more money is "printed" (created) and that drives inflation through the fucking roof. Get it yet?

The LPC was NEVER serious about "pharmacare" or "dental care" or they would have prioritized it long ago. I will say it again and again, it was a political stunt and nothing more by both the LPC and the NDP to try and steal back votes from the CPC.

I am truly sick and tired of government employees who don't seem to realize we are in a major economic crisis (record number of people going to food banks and living in tent cities) and seem to think governments should plow through tax money like its no one else business.

If you UNDERSTOOD the most basic principles of economy you would realize it is the private sector especially resource harvest/extraction/management (mining, oil and gas, lumber, farming, etc) that is TRULY key to economic growth not government taxation and forced into BS "green" programs (that are anything but)