Joe Grozelle

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Investigators hope a new autopsy will show whether Joe Grozelle met with foul play.
JONATHAN SHER, Free Press Reporter     2004-10-19 04:11:23    


Eleven months after the remains of a Chatham-area cadet washed ashore near Kingston, his body will be exhumed by investigators unable to determine if he died as a result of foul play. Provincial police don't know how Joe Grozelle, a third-year student at Royal Military College in Kingston, ended up in a frigid river last Nov. 13.

But OPP Det. Insp. Ian Grant said he's getting closer to the answers he hopes a second examination will bring.

"I think we're quite a bit closer (than we were 11 months ago)," Grant said yesterday.

The OPP have gathered new evidence since Ontario's chief coroner asked them to take over the investigation from the military and local police in March, deputy chief coroner Dr. Jim Cairns said.

"OPP have in their investigation found some things that need to be evaluated further," Cairns said.

Asked about new evidence, Grant said he wouldn't discuss it for fear it might taint future statements by witnesses.

Grozelle, 21, was last seen Oct. 22, 2003, in his dorm room by his girlfriend, Melissa Haggart, who told authorities she fell asleep at 1 a.m. and awoke at 5:30 a.m. to find him gone, his wallet and cellphone left behind.

That timeline hasn't been contradicted by any evidence gathered since, Grant said.

A medical examiner found signs Grozelle drowned, but didn't establish whether he slipped, jumped or was pushed into the Cataraqui River, Cairns said.

The examiner found no trauma to the body, which was so badly decomposed it was identified with dental records.

The decision to exhume Grozelle's body, to be done in the next two to three weeks, wasn't made lightly because it can be so upsetting to family, Grant said.

"It's not very often we do that," he said.

But that doesn't mean police believe Grozelle was killed by someone else, Grant said. If that were the case, OPP would take over the investigation, which is still being directed by the coroner's office.

Nor does it mean the first autopsy was lacking, he said. As a case progresses, new questions can arise about old evidence that a second autopsy may address.

The bottom line is police still don't know if Grozelle was the victim of homicide, suicide, an accident or death by natural causes, said Cairns.

The lack of answers has been difficult for Grozelle's parents and siblings.

Police haven't shared details of their probe, Grozelle's father, Ron said yesterday.

"The length of time this investigation has been going and the lack of information is extremely frustrating," Ron Grozelle said. "This is 2004, not 1904, and I would hope we could get some resolution."

Grozelle's family believes he didn't commit suicide. The lead military investigator uncovered no unusual pressures on him beyond that which was typical for a 21-year-old.

Hopefully some closure for his family soon.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

..and more,

   
Plea for help on Grozelle case persuades caller to contact OPP

By Frank Armstrong
Local News - Wednesday, February 23, 2005 @ 07:00

One of six people who might help solve the mystery of how a 21-year-old Royal Military College cadet ended up dead in the Cataraqui River has answered a plea from police to come forward.

In a surprise development Monday, the OPP announced it would like to speak with six people it hoped could help with the investigation into the disappearance and death of Joe Grozelle.
Four of the people police are seeking were captured on video Oct. 22, 2003, the morning Grozelle went missing; one person spoke to an employee at a local Canadian Tire store about Grozelle on Oct. 29; and one person called Kingston Crime Stoppers last December about three people in a doughnut shop the morning of Oct. 22.
â Å“The Crime Stoppers caller has called in ... and there may be a few other outstanding calls,â ? OPP spokeswoman Kristine Cholette said in an interview yesterday.

Cholette didn't have any other details about the woman caller except that she will soon be interviewed.
However, she said Kingston Crime Stoppers and the OPP have been answering a steady wave of calls from tipsters since Monday night, when police made their plea for help.
â Å“The calls have not been swamping us, but they're steady,â ? she said.
Yesterday, the OPP also released surveillance video clips and still images of four people walking near the La Salle Causeway between 1 and 2 a.m. Oct. 22.

Police hope the four people will come forward because they may have information that could help place Grozelle before his death.
At 1:10 a.m., the video, shot by a surveillance camera at the top of a limestone building at Fort Frontenac, shows four people walking toward downtown past the fort.
At 1:52 a.m., another video clip appears to show the same people standing in the same place apparently talking to one another and then walking back toward the bridge and RMC.
â Å“It could be [the same people], but anybody walking there between that 1 a.m. and 2 a.m. period is who we're trying to find,â ? Cholette said.
The images are dark and grainy and it's difficult to pick out the four people in the video, but they're clearly walking toward town around 1:10 a.m. and away from town at 1:52 a.m.
Cholette said at least a half-dozen OPP investigators were busy yesterday following up the leads they've received since police made their public plea yesterday.
She said investigators have had the video since beginning their probe last year, but have held on to it because they only recently exhausted all other avenues of tracking down the people on it.

â Å“The reason it's being released now is we've tried other means to identify these people through interviews and that kind of stuff,â ? she said. â Å“We haven't been able to, so that's why it's being released now.â ?
As well as the Crime Stoppers caller and the four pedestrians who walked along the causeway, police are looking for a man who visited the Kingston Centre Canadian Tire store on Oct. 29.
According to police, he took down a missing person poster depicting Grozelle, then spoke to an employee at the store's information counter and gave her the poster.
The man is described as white, about six feet tall, of medium build, clean shaven, with dark wavy hair that slightly covers the top of his ears, about 30 to 40 years old. He was wearing jeans and a Columbia jacket with black sleeves and a green or blue torso.

Grozelle, a top student and basketball player at RMC, disappeared from his dorm room while writing a school assignment the night of Oct. 22-23.
His body was found floating in the Inner Harbour near the military college Nov. 13, 22 days later.
After a first autopsy, authorities said Grozelle's death was consistent with drowning.
Not satisfied with the investigation, the Grozelle family pressed for a fuller one. The young cadet's body was exhumed last November and a second autopsy performed.

The family hired its own forensic pathologist to independently view the second autopsy.
Tests that would look for damage such as deep bruising weren't conducted the first time because pathologists weren't looking for four play, as military investigators had already ruled Grozelle's death a suicide, said Dr. Jim Cairns, Ontario's deputy coroner.
Cairns said the investigation is expected to wrap up by the end of March.

At that time, the Ontario Coroner's Office will examine the findings of the second autopsy and come to a conclusion as to what killed the former officer-cadet, Cairns said.
The coroner will also release the results of the investigation to the public, he said.

 

[lahr_brat]

Loss of life is always a tragic story (unless you are Hitler in 1945).  

The bigger question here is why did it take a second autopsy to coax investigators to dig deeper.   Considering that the video camera that has indicated "persons of interest" monitors military property, why did the NIS not think to consider this during their original investigation?

Regardless if the death was suicide, accidental, or foul play it is somewhat disturbing that evidence, now deemed important, was overlooked.

   

 

[Chags]

Anybody have any new information on this..  I've been tracking the developments on a Crime Sleuths forum, but I was hoping to hear from people at RMC or at least in Kingston who would be getting the best coverage.. 

I'm sure some of the RMC folks know exactly what happened...  fill us in.

 

[Armageddon]

I was at RMC at the time when this happened and I knew of Grozelle and  I knew his Girlfriend.  We didn't really know much about the facts of the case, it often seemed that the public knew more than we did.  All and all the scenario was odd.  The only thing I really remember clearly of the whole case was his father coming into a room with all the other people that were in the same year as I was and he kept wanting to know if this was the result of some sort of hazing ritual gone wrong......and before a single person asks I will assure anyone on here that there is definately no hazing going on at RMC.  I do seem to recall though that that night was really icy and that is always a possibility if he went for a walk near the rocks.  Sorry if I don't have any real details and/or facts but that is all that I remember happening around that time and unless anyone else on here can back me on any of those I think you should all just take those as rumours since, as I said, I really didn't know him at all.

 

[eliminator]

Well, being my first post here on the Forum, may as well be something relating to my unit....

When all of this happened last year, the cadets of the college we pretty much left in the dark. Aside form a quick meeting with some senior staff, we had to rely on the media to find out what was going on. The latest news on this case is the most any of us have ever heard. Cadets rarely speak of this incident anymore, but when it does come up, we all agree that the circumstances are pretty creepy and suspicious. I think it will be a long time before anyone really knows what truly happened. It is my belief that we will probably never really know. I'm friends with a wide cross section of cadets from different groups and different years and absolutely nobody knows what happened. You cannot keep secrets at RMC, it's just impossible. If someone knows what transpired, I'm confident it would have leaked by now.
That's all I have to say on the issue.

 

[cybersleuther]

Hi.   I'm from Cybersleuths and would like to let you all know that we have an active discussion forum about Joe Grozelle.

Here is the link to the Joe Grozelle thread.

Please feel free to join us.   You will need to register before being able to post.

Thank you.  

 

[Chags]

This case has been quiet for much too long..   People will sweep it all under the rug and forget about Joe.   He and his family deserve more than this.    There are so many rumours going on..   and I know first hand that rumours fly pretty rampantly at the Royal Military Circus (grad'00), but so many fingers are pointing at "cover up".

I do seem to recall though that that night was really icy and that is always a possibility if he went for a walk near the rocks.

and thats one of the lamest stories I've heard.   So he slipped and fell and his shirt and belt magically fell off?   I hate when that happens.

What trade is Miss ****** anyway?   She's graduating this spring..   hopefully to leave all of this behind forever.


No need to name names at this point.

 

[Chags]

Grozelle probe almost done: OPP

By Frank Armstrong
Local News - Saturday, March 19, 2005 @ 07:00

Provincial police say they hope to wrap up by the end of this month their part of a coroner's investigation into the mysterious death of Royal Military College cadet Joe Grozelle.

â Å“This thing has been going on for quite some time now and we want to get it done,â ? said OPP Staff Sgt. Kristine Cholette yesterday.

â Å“Everybody wants that.â ?

Grozelle, a top student and basketball player at RMC, disappeared from his dorm room while writing an assignment the night of Oct. 22, 2003.

His body was found floating in the Inner Harbour near the college on Nov. 13.

An autopsy concluded Grozelle's death was consistent with drowning, authorities said.

Not satisfied with the investigation, the Grozelle family pressed for a fuller probe.
Grozelle's body was exhumed last November for a second autopsy.

The family hired its own forensic pathologist to independently view the second autopsy.

Tests that would look for damage such as deep bruising weren't conducted the first time because pathologists weren't looking for foul play, as military investigators had already ruled Grozelle's death a suicide, Dr. Jim Cairns, Ontario's deputy coroner, has said in published reports.

Det. Insp. Ian Grant, in charge of the OPP investigation, had hoped to wrap up the probe by the end of March.

In a surprise development last month, the OPP released images from a security videotape that captured four people walking on the La Salle Causeway the morning Grozelle disappeared.

In hopes of piecing together the events surrounding Grozelle's disappearance, police asked the four people, or anybody with information about them, to come forward.

They also asked two other people, from two other separate incidents, who may have information about Grozelle's disappearance and death to contact them.

One person spoke to an employee at a local Canadian Tire store about Grozelle on Oct. 29 and another called Kingston Crime Stoppers last December about three people in a doughnut shop the morning of Oct. 22.

Police said last month the person who called Crime Stoppers has contacted police, but Cholette wouldn't say if anyone else had come forward.

â Å“The inspector isn't specifying what other callers called in already,â ? she said. â Å“I think he just wants to let things go and follow up on what he has received.â ?

Although the second autopsy was completed soon after the body was exhumed, Cairns has said the Ontario Coroner's Office won't release its findings until after the OPP wraps up its investigation. At that time, the coroner's office will examine the findings of the second autopsy, come to a conclusion as to what killed the former officer-cadet and release the results of the investigation, Cairns has said.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Printed from www.thewhig.com web site Friday, May 13, 2005 -  © 2005  The Kingston Whig-Standard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mystery man contacts police
By Tamsin McMahon
Friday, May 13, 2005 - 07:00

Local News - A mystery man whose photo police released in hopes that he might have information about the death of RMC cadet Joe Grozelle hired a lawyer and contacted police yesterday.

"The man has been identified and has come forward and has co-operated fully with police and has given them a statement and the police are not looking for him any further,â ? said the man's lawyer, Chris Ecclestone said.
Police had wanted to talk to the man, who they said took down a missing-person poster about Grozelle from a Canadian Tire store a week after the third-year cadet went missing.
Investigators said the man handed the poster to a female clerk at the information desk.

OPP investigators took the unusual step of issuing a clear photo of the man, snapped by the store's surveillance camera, in hopes that he would come forward.
Ecclestone said the man was surprised when his picture was splashed across the front pages of newspapers in Ontario, including The Whig-Standard yesterday.
"He had no idea until the story was published with his picture that anybody was looking for him for any reason,â ? the lawyer said.
Ecclestone said the man immediately contacted police, who interviewed him for about 15 minutes yesterday afternoon in Ecclestone's office.

The man co-operated fully with police, who took a videotaped statement, Ecclestone said.
"He's definitely in no way a suspect,â ? Ecclestone said. "The police are not interested in talking to him any further.â ?
The man spoke with The Whig-Standard yesterday from his lawyer's office, but declined to give his name.
"He doesn't want his name published, he has already had lots of calls and privacy issues as a result of the picture being released,â ? Ecclestone said.
"He wanted to make sure there was a story of equal prominence indicating he came forward right away and co-
operated fully with police and is not being sought for any reason.â ?

In an interview with The Whig, the man said on Oct. 29, 2003, he was headed to Canadian Tire, where he's a regular customer, when a friend phoned him and mentioned that he had heard on the radio that investigators had called off the search for Grozelle.
The man said he spotted a missing poster depicting Grozelle that was prominently displayed in the store.
Believing the search had been called off and that investigators had possibly found Grozelle, he said he felt the family shouldn't be faced with photos of their son plastered all over the city.
He said he took the poster down and handed it to a clerk and told her that perhaps the store should check whether the poster still needed to be up.

"All he said was that the search had been called off and the poster may no longer be necessary,â ? Ecclestone said.
"He was just relaying information that was publicly available.â ?
Investigators from the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service didn't call off the search for Grozelle until Oct. 31, 2003. Police divers returned to the search the water on Nov. 4.

The body of the 21-year-old cadet washed up in the Inner Harbour on Nov. 13, 2003.
The lead OPP investigator, Det.-Insp. Ian Grant, confirmed that police had interviewed a man they believed to be the person from the photograph and that they interviewed him at his lawyer's office.
"We spoke to the unidentified man and we believe he is the right person,â ? Grant said. "The person is still just a witness, nothing has changed.â ?

He said the information the man provided didn't raise any red flags for investigators and he didn't expect that police would interview the man again.
"There's nothing untoward about the information,â ? Grant said. "He did provide a logical explanation from our point of view.â ?

The man told The Whig that he put his innocuous comment to the store clerk out of his mind until yesterday, when he was inundated with calls from as far away as Ottawa and Toronto after his photo appeared in the paper.
The callers included one person who threatened to to turn him in to police, despite the fact investigators said he wasn't a suspect.
When he realized he was the man police were looking for, the man said he immediately called the Frontenac OPP and then called Ecclestone to set up the interview with police.
He said he called police so that the Grozelle family would have some peace of mind knowing that there wasn't someone out there withholding important information about their son.

The man said he was upset that police went to the lengths they did to find him. Although investigators stressed that he wasn't a suspect, he said people viewed him with suspicion after his photo was published.
"A lot of people don't read further than the headline, especially a big headline and a big picture,â ? his lawyer said.
Grant said he still believes police did the right thing by releasing the photo.

"You couldn't have an action of somebody coming in two weeks before Joe Grozelle's body was located and do something of that nature - taking down the poster - and not say [to yourself], 'Why would that person be doing that when [the search] is still going on?' â ? Grant said.
"But by the other side of the coin, I don't know everything that was done or the press that was out at that time.â ?

 

[cybersleuther]

Why is it that Mystery Man and Haggart only speak to the Whig?

Who believes that MM's friend called him the same day posters were being plastered all over town to tell him the search was called off?  Nobody would believe that. 

Also, if his friend really did call him about Grozelle, it has to be because MM was following the story.  He'd have known by Saturday night that the search had NOT been cancelled.  And if he's so concerned about the family's feelings, as he claims, why didn't he call the tire store and ask them to put the poster back on the wall?

Why does OPP call MM's story "logical"?  There nothing logical about it.  Or about being "upset" that LE is looking for you, or about hiring a lawyer to explain why you took down a flyer.

Unless I missed the update, the 4 pedestrians seen on videotape still haven't been located and interviewed.  Until a connection between the four and MM is ruled out,  how can anyone be certain he's not involved in what looks to me to be a cover-up?

"Nothing untoward" about his explanation?  And he finally came forward, all lawyered up, because he wants the Grozelle's to have "peace of mind"? 

I live hundreds of miles away from RMC and I knew all about the search for MM, long before the photograph was published.  How could anyone following the case *not* have known? 

I'd love to hear what you all think.

 

[cybersleuther]

Just in case anyone didn't see the photograph.

Does anyone recognize him?  Know him?  Maybe from RMC?

 

[BHS]

A new crime forum has been started and a thread for Joe Grozelle begun, with archived posts from the Cybersleuths forum (which has been sold and will be closing soon).

Anyone with an interest in Joe's case, or in true crime discussion, is welcome to join:

The Bushy Haired Stranger

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

 
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/17/cadet_body051117.html

No foul play in Ontario cadet's death: coroner
Last Updated Thu, 17 Nov 2005 11:34:14 EST
CBC News
Police have ruled out foul play in the 2003 drowning death of a military cadet in Ontario whose body was found washed up on a river bank in Kingston, says a provincial coroner.
The body of 21-year-old Joe Grozelle was discovered two years ago on the shores of the Cataraqui River, three weeks after he left his dorm at the Royal Military College.
   
"We have one or two very loose ends to tie up ... but the Ontario Provincial Police have no reason to believe that criminal charges are involved," said Jim Cairns, Ontario's deputy chief coroner.
"We all feel we've exhausted all lines of inquiry, and now we're prepared to sit down with the family and tell them what we think happened."

An autopsy concluded Grozelle drowned, but it wasn't determined whether he had slipped, jumped, or was pushed.
The initial Defence Department investigation ruled his death a suicide by drowning, a conclusion his family disputes. A well-liked, top athlete, Grozelle had just been named his squadron's sports officer and was doing well in his studies.

His body was exhumed in November 2004 after provincial police said they had new information.
Cairns wouldn't comment on whether the original verdict of suicide had been reaffirmed.

 

[The Bread Guy]

http://ogov.newswire.ca/ontario/GPOE/2006/09/26/c9972.html?lmatch=&lang=_e.html
Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services

New date for inquest in the death of Joseph Grozelle Announced


    TORONTO, Sept. 26 /CNW/ - Dr. Barry McLellan, Chief Coroner of Ontario,
today announced that a new date has been set for the inquest in the death of
Joseph Grozelle.
    The body of Mr. Grozelle was found in the Cataraqui River in Kingston on
November 13, 2003. He was reported missing on October 21, 2003, from the Royal
Military College where he was a cadet.
    An inquest jury is mandated under the Coroners Act to answer questions
about a death and to make recommendations, if possible, aimed at preventing
deaths in similar circumstances.
    The inquest will begin at 1 p.m. on Wednesday, October 18, 2006, at the
City of Kingston Council Chambers, 216 Ontario Street, Kingston. Dr. David
Eden, Regional Supervising Coroner for Niagara, will preside as inquest
coroner and Mr. Michael Blain will be counsel to the coroner . . . .

 

[chris_log]

Hope I don't get blasted for waking up a two year old topic;

Did anyone watch the Fifth Estate episode this evening on the case? I thought it was pretty well done although CBC did seem to ride the NIS pretty hard (justified? maybe, maybe not, I wasn't there)  regarding their conduct of the investigation. As well, kudos to the family for not giving up on finding answers and continuing to press for information IRT to what happened to their son and how the investigation was conducted. 

 

[PMedMoe]

I caught most of the show.  I also thought it was well done.

Here's a link to the Fifth Estate website and one for the episode.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Necrothread bumped with the very latest ....

For the first time in more than 16 years, Nikki Grozelle feels like Ontario's chief coroner is listening to her family's concerns about the death of her brother.

After a meeting with the Grozelle family and the head of Kingston's police service on Wednesday, Dr. Dirk Huyer told CBC News that he received "very helpful information" in regards to the death of Joe Grozelle, a 21-year-old student of Kingston's Royal Military College, in 2003.

Huyer said he would spend the next few weeks going over that information and deciding whether or not to take additional investigation action. Though he didn't provide a specific timeline for when he'd have more information, the Grozelle family expects to hear back sometime in March.

Nikki Grozelle said Huyer committed to telling her family which agency would be taking carriage of the case — that would give people an agency to send their tips to — and whether or not the agency would be taking any further steps to investigate. Huyer told CBC News one of those steps could be more forensic testing, but that he hadn't "made any determination at this point."

(...)

Joe's death was first deemed a suicide by drowning by the Canadian Forces, but in 2007 a coroner's jury later ruled the cause of death to be "unascertained, non-natural causes" and the manner of death as "undetermined." 

To the Grozelle family, those are answers, but they are not the truth.

"Joe was always one for the truth," said Ron Grozelle, Joe's dad. "I think we're trying to do the right thing by pushing this as far as we can to get the answers for him. Not only for him, but for other parents, other families that experience a similar situation." ...