RPAS (was JUSTAS): the project to buy armed Medium Altitude Long Endurance (MALE) UAVs

[Eye In The Sky]

I was significantly underwhelmed with the projected IOC and FOC capabilities as briefed by a Proj O on the RPAS file. I haven’t heard of many operators wanting to move to the NCR and lose their AIRCRA either.

 

[dimsum]

I was significantly underwhelmed with the projected IOC and FOC capabilities as briefed by a Proj O on the RPAS file. I haven’t heard of many operators wanting to move to the NCR and lose their AIRCRA either.

There would have to be some sort of AIRCRA-like allowance to get anyone there. You are directly controlling an aircraft - you should get Aircrew pay.

I mean, would Pilots posted there stop being paid under the Pilot pay scale?

 

[dapaterson]

What is the purpose of AIRCRA, and does it apply to individuals not flying in an aircraft?

 

[SupersonicMax]

What is the purpose of AIRCRA, and does it apply to individuals not flying in an aircraft?

205.32(1) (Intent) Aircrew Allowance (Monthly) is financial compensation paid for the performance of assigned duties where there is continual and substantial exposure to the environmental conditions associated with flying operations.


A lot of those environmental conditions exist for UAS crew.

 

[dapaterson]

Ground crew, prepping and sending out platforms - yes.

Operators and analysts? That's where the friction points may arise.

 

[Good2Golf]

There would have to be some sort of AIRCRA-like allowance to get anyone there. You are directly controlling an aircraft - you should get Aircrew pay.

I mean, would Pilots posted there stop being paid under the Pilot pay scale?

Shouldn’t…a flying pilot’s a flying pilot…keep the AIRCRA flowing!!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Shouldn’t…a flying pilot’s a flying pilot…keep the AIRCRA flowing!!
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RCAF pilot might not be the best example; AIRCRA was incorporated into salary for them and SAR Tech. The rest of us got the “maybe next time, but you’re not part of the next time review” deal.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

There would have to be some sort of AIRCRA-like allowance to get anyone there. You are directly controlling an aircraft - you should get Aircrew pay.

I mean, would Pilots posted there stop being paid under the Pilot pay scale?

This is something in this file they need to address; COL aspects affect the willingness IMO. I opted out quickly as the details firmed up on GCS location.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Ground crew, prepping and sending out platforms - yes.

Operators and analysts? That's where the friction points may arise.

Sitting for long periods, requiring high levels of concentrations, responsible for the same operation of an aircraft and its systems, etc. Sitting in a GCS is no different than sitting in the back of an A330 pressurized at 8,000 ft….

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Sitting for long periods, requiring high levels of concentrations, responsible for the same operation of an aircraft and its systems, etc. Sitting in a GCS is no different than sitting in the back of an A330 pressurized at 8,000 ft….

I’d support an allowance different than AIRCRA, similar to CANSOF supporter levels; AIRCRA is rather peanuts, especially at the start, after taxes. I was getting $327/month AIRCRA for just shy of 120 flying hours on IMPACT R0. It’s not a motivator to anyone who takes 30 seconds to do some math.

More preferred, revamp all flying MOSIDs pay similar to pilot and SAR Tech and do away with environmental allowance.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I’d support an allowance different than AIRCRA, similar to CANSOF supporter levels; AIRCRA is rather peanuts, especially at the start, after taxes. I was getting $327/month AIRCRA for just shy of 120 flying hours on IMPACT R0. It’s not a motivator to anyone who takes 30 seconds to do some math.

More preferred, revamp all flying MOSIDs pay similar to pilot and SAR Tech and do away with environmental allowance.

CANSOF assaulters don’t get an allowance either. It’s in their pay. I would never compare SARTECs and Assaulters to any aircrew. They actually put their life on the line regularly. The probability of getting seriously injured or killed as a SARTEC is close to 1…

 

[Kirkhill]

205.32(1) (Intent) Aircrew Allowance (Monthly) is financial compensation paid for the performance of assigned duties where there is continual and substantial exposure to the environmental conditions associated with flying operations.


A lot of those environmental conditions exist for UAS crew.

In Bytown?

 

[SupersonicMax]

In Bytown?

Cramped spaces, concentrated for long periods, from an airworthiness point of view, responsible for the safety of people. No different than sitting in the back of an A330 pressurized at 8,000 ft cabin altitude.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Cramped spaces, concentrated for long periods, from an airworthiness point of view, responsible for the safety of people. No different than sitting in the back of an A330 pressurized at 8,000 ft cabin altitude.

He is right, you know.

Maybe AIRCRA has outlived its usefulness and needs to be rolled into base pay, somehow? (Not pilot- we know that has already been done).

 

[PuckChaser]

In about a decade CAFJES will do that. Folks will just have to find something else to claim they're better than someone else so they should get paid more...

 

[Kirkhill]

Cramped spaces, concentrated for long periods, from an airworthiness point of view, responsible for the safety of people. No different than sitting in the back of an A330 pressurized at 8,000 ft cabin altitude.

Am I understanding this correctly though? This will be a facility that will be permanently attached to the ground in Ottawa? If so, why would the control station have to be cramped?

And as for concentrating for long periods and responsible for the safety of people. Doesn't that equally describe an Air Traffic Controller?

Not trying to be contentious here.

 

[dimsum]

Am I understanding this correctly though? This will be a facility that will be permanently attached to the ground in Ottawa? If so, why would the control station have to be cramped?

It doesn’t. Current ones simulate a cockpit bc that’s generally what people understand, and for reasons of security they wouldn’t just be in a big cubicle farm.

But that’s not the main issue. The “concentrating for long periods”, etc is.

It’s not like you can just take a break and leave for a coffee, because while the aircraft could technically fly itself, legally speaking the pilot needs to be there. If there is something going on (surveillance or even kinetic stuff) then there is no way the sensor operator or Mission Int Coord will decide they’re tired and walk off.

Sure, technically a backup operator can come in, but that’s the same as in a multi-crew aircraft where you have an extra pilot.

 

[dimsum]

Am I understanding this correctly though? This will be a facility that will be permanently attached to the ground in Ottawa? If so, why would the control station have to be cramped?

And as for concentrating for long periods and responsible for the safety of people. Doesn't that equally describe an Air Traffic Controller?

Not trying to be contentious here.

Actually the ATC aspect is a good point. They have hour-on-hour-off shifts.

Why they don’t get an allowance is on their trade - they totally should. They also go through aircrew medicals.

 

[PuckChaser]

Am I understanding this correctly though? This will be a facility that will be permanently attached to the ground in Ottawa? If so, why would the control station have to be cramped?

Have you heard of Workspace 2.0, or it's smaller, more efficient cousin, Workspace 3.0?

 

[Furniture]

Actually the ATC aspect is a good point. They have hour-on-hour-off shifts.

Why they don’t get an allowance is on their trade - they totally should. They also go through aircrew medicals.

They don't for the same reason MSE OPs don't(cramped spaces, safety of lives, etc.)... It would cost too much, so they get what they get, and they can get out if they don't like it.