RPAS (was JUSTAS): the project to buy armed Medium Altitude Long Endurance (MALE) UAVs

[dimsum]

They don't for the same reason MSE OPs don't(cramped spaces, safety of lives, etc.)... It would cost too much, so they get what they get, and they can get out if they don't like it.

And for AECs, that’s pretty much exactly what’s happening. NAV CANADA is all too willing to take them.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

CANSOF assaulters don’t get an allowance either. It’s in their pay. I would never compare SARTECs and Assaulters to any aircrew. They actually put their life on the line regularly. The probability of getting seriously injured or killed as a SARTEC is close to 1…

Not the same level of compensation; I should have worded it differently. I meant “similar as in their

Am I understanding this correctly though? This will be a facility that will be permanently attached to the ground in Ottawa? If so, why would the control station have to be cramped?

And as for concentrating for long periods and responsible for the safety of people. Doesn't that equally describe an Air Traffic Controller?

Not trying to be contentious here.

ATC isn’t going to deal with targetting / dropping kill stores on other humans. RPAS crews…more than likely. They will likely experience things like Aurora crews did in Libya, Iraq and Syria but from a GCS and with the addition PGMs on hard points.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

CANSOF assaulters don’t get an allowance either. It’s in their pay.

For clarity, I was thinking SOF Supporter vice assaulters, similar to the $ levels for CAT 1 supporters at this link:

Chapter 205- Allowances for officers and non-commissioned members - Canada.ca

Chapter 205 - Allowances for officers and non-commissioned-members 2023

www.canada.ca

It's early, but isn't this the allowance for Assaulters? I thought it was only Pilots and SAR Tech that had the environmental allowance embedded into their pay, I thought SOF just had a base pay increase.

Chapter 205- Allowances for officers and non-commissioned members - Canada.ca

Chapter 205 - Allowances for officers and non-commissioned-members 2023

www.canada.ca

I would never compare SARTECs and Assaulters to any aircrew. They actually put their life on the line regularly. The probability of getting seriously injured or killed as a SARTEC is close to 1…

Technically, SAR Techs are aircrew IAW the policy (CFAO). But agreed, and I'm not suggesting RPAS crews should be compared to SAR/SOF. I think AIRCRA falls short of an environmental allowance, based on the Op tempo that fleet will experience and the things they will be exposed to way more regularly than any other fleet (IMO).

 

[SupersonicMax]

It's early, but isn't this the allowance for Assaulters? I thought it was only Pilots and SAR Tech that had the environmental allowance embedded into their pay, I thought SOF just had a base pay increase.

205.385(2) (Entitlement) Subject to paragraph (3), a member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force who is on Class “B” or “C” Reserve Service is entitled to this allowance if all of the following conditions are satisfied:

1. the member occupies a designated position for the purposes of this instruction;
2. the member reports for duty in the designated special operations position;
3. the member is not disentitled under CBI 205.29 (Environmental Allowances Matrix) or CBI 10.3.08 (Environmental Allowances); and
4. the member is not eligible to be paid under CBI 204.31 (Pay – Special Forces and Search and Rescue Specialist) or CBI 204.531 (Pay – Special Forces and Search and Rescue Specialist – Reserve Force).

 

[Eye In The Sky]

ATC isn’t going to deal with targetting / dropping kill stores on other humans. RPAS crews…more than likely. They will likely experience things like Aurora crews did in Libya, Iraq and Syria but from a GCS and with the addition PGMs on hard points.

I forgot to mention the Spewer/CHUD folks in Afghanistan. We also have some aircrew working with NATO RPAS on OUTCANs, and some ASCOs who have done exchange postings with the RAAF that did operational tours in a theatre IIRC.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

This article has some relevance from an operational realities/impacts on the people who will crew/support RCAF RPAS. Mark is originally from the LRP fleet and has since completed his OUTCAN with the USN P-8 fleet.

The Mental Health Risks Associated with Remotely Piloted Aircraft Operations​

 

[Eye In The Sky]

205.385(2) (Entitlement) Subject to paragraph (3), a member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force who is on Class “B” or “C” Reserve Service is entitled to this allowance if all of the following conditions are satisfied:

1. the member occupies a designated position for the purposes of this instruction;
2. the member reports for duty in the designated special operations position;
3. the member is not disentitled under CBI 205.29 (Environmental Allowances Matrix) or CBI 10.3.08 (Environmental Allowances); and
4. the member is not eligible to be paid under CBI 204.31 (Pay – Special Forces and Search and Rescue Specialist) or CBI 204.531 (Pay – Special Forces and Search and Rescue Specialist – Reserve Force).

Ahh, seen.

I think the RPAS allowance should fall somewhere around the higher end LDA - SOF Supporter CAT 1 levels in terms of $. I have no doubt they will be high demand/high op tempo/high burn-out.

 

[dimsum]

Ahh, seen.

I think the RPAS allowance should fall somewhere around the higher end LDA - SOF Supporter CAT 1 levels in terms of $. I have no doubt they will be high demand/high op tempo/high burn-out.

Yes.

 

[FJAG]

@dimsum. Not sure if you've seen this video on how the US Army operates the MQ1 Gray Eagle. The last part which deals with the establishment and organization behind a twelve aircraft company is quite enlightening.

MQ-1C Gray Eagle UAV Tactics

MQ-1C tactics, strengths, limitations, and unit organization

www.battleorder.org

 

[dimsum]

@dimsum. Not sure if you've seen this video on how the US Army operates the MQ1 Gray Eagle. The last part which deals with the establishment and organization behind a twelve aircraft company is quite enlightening.

I haven’t, but I do know that the US Army and USMC don’t (or didn’t) fly them out from CONUS, unlike the USAF.

 

[FJAG]

I haven’t, but I do know that the US Army and USMC don’t (or didn’t) fly them out from CONUS, unlike the USAF.

What impressed me was the austerity of the establishment. Basically a major and captain run the company but the operations side, including flying the systems, are various warrant officer positions. I keep plugging away with the idea that a warrant officer specialist program is sorely needed in the CAF for numerous trades in lieu of officers and the NCM type of WOs.

My guess is that our RCAF UAV system will be thick with officers like it was for the much smaller TUAV establishment.

 

[dimsum]

My guess is that our RCAF UAV system will be thick with officers like it was for the much smaller TUAV establishment.

Unless Pilot becomes a trade that allows WOs in (again), yes.

 

[SupersonicMax]

What impressed me was the austerity of the establishment. Basically a major and captain run the company but the operations side, including flying the systems, are various warrant officer positions. I keep plugging away with the idea that a warrant officer specialist program is sorely needed in the CAF for numerous trades in lieu of officers and the NCM type of WOs.

My guess is that our RCAF UAV system will be thick with officers like it was for the much smaller TUAV establishment.

I don’t understand what advantage you have by employing WOs instead of officers. You would still need to pay the, appropriate to avoid them leaving.

 

[GR66]

I don’t understand what advantage you have by employing WOs instead of officers. You would still need to pay the, appropriate to avoid them leaving.

Eliminates the University degree requirement so there is not that additional four year wait (or expense in the case of CAF sponsored programs) to put a member into that role?

 

[PuckChaser]

I don’t understand what advantage you have by employing WOs instead of officers. You would still need to pay the, appropriate to avoid them leaving.

What advantage do we have employing officers instead of WOs? The pay part is easy, see SAR Tech and SF pay scales.

 

[SupersonicMax]

What advantage do we have employing officers instead of WOs? The pay part is easy, see SAR Tech and SF pay scales.

If they are paid the same, why not just enroll them as officers?

 

[PuckChaser]

If they are paid the same, why not just enroll them as officers?

You're answering questions with questions. What benefits do we have have with solely officers operating aircraft?

 

[SupersonicMax]

You're answering questions with questions. What benefits do we have have with solely officers operating aircraft?

I just don’t know what we’re trying to solve…. There is a training capacity issue, not an interest in the trade issue. If we hire 500 prospective WOs next year, we still can’t train them.

 

[dimsum]

Eliminates the University degree requirement so there is not that additional four year wait (or expense in the case of CAF sponsored programs) to put a member into that role?

That can also be done via CEOTP or other means.

I think @SupersonicMax has a good point though - if the issue is actually training said folks, having more recruits in the front end isn’t going to solve the issue. There are currently no lack of Pilot recruits.

@FJAG: The US Army is the only service I know of using NCMs (not WOs) flying large-ish RPAS. The USN uses WOs or officers, the USMC will be using officers, and the USAF currently uses officers. On the sensor operator side, almost all use a type of AES Op equivalent except the RAF and RAAF, which use(d) a mix of NCMs and officers.

 

[Kirkhill]

At one end of the spectrum we have commissioned officers flying large bodies at high altitudes for long periods and at various speeds while sitting beside a coffee pot.

At the other end of the spectrum we have corporals flying small bodies at low altitudes for short periods and a various speeds while sitting in a hole chewing instant coffee.

Where is the saw off?

And some times both "operators" go hands off and let the flying body do its own thing.