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Kalatzi hi-jack of MP tour thread, was Re: MP

Kalatzi

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What do Nelson Mandela, Michael Collins, Archbishop Makarios, Menachim Begin, Yasser Arafat, Yitzhak Shamir, Eamon DeValera and Jomo Kenyatta have in common, apart from having being heads of state?

To find the answer: look here
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HH17Ak03.html
Its like Deja vue, all over again!
 
Kalatzi said:
What do Nelson Mandela, Michael Collins, Archbishop Makarios, Menachim Begin, Yasser Arafat, Yitzhak Shamir, Eamon DeValera and Jomo Kenyatta have in common, apart from having being heads of state?

To find the answer: look here
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HH17Ak03.html
Its like Deja vue, all over again!

so what are you saying ? That Heizbollah isnt a terrorist organization ?
 
I think he raises an interesting point - that in today's charged atmosphere terrorist gets lobbed around quite easily; his article takes an interesting look at the history of the term.

Is Hezbollah a terrorist organization?  Without a doubt, yes - terrorism is one of their tactics, although only one facet of their operations (both military and otherwise) - they do (and did) engage in guerrilla actions against the IDF which were recognized as legitimate hostilities even by Geneva Convention terms.  However, that is only part of the equation.  We've supported or directly employed tactics similar to Hezbollah before (French Resistance, bombardment of civilian areas) and the article is apt to point out the history of parts of the Israeli independence movement so I guess the moral calculus needs a bit of an adjustment.
 
Infanteer said:
Is Hezbollah a terrorist organization?  Without a doubt, yes

I feel releived.

they do (and did) engage in guerrilla actions against the IDF which were recognized as legitimate hostilities even by Geneva Convention terms

The other part of the equasion is the deliberate targeting of civilians by Hizbolah.  This against all facets of international law, plain and simple. If it were only Hizbolah attacking the IDF, the additional protocols to the Geneva conventions would consider it legitimate hostilities.  Alas, this is not the only thing Hizbolah has been doing and the indicriminate firing of rockets into civilian areas is what sets them apart moraly and legaly from legitimate conflict.  The fact that they place their weapons in civilian areas is also against international law, further eroding any credibility they have.
 
Infanteer said:
We've supported or directly employed tactics similar to Hezbollah before (French Resistance, bombardment of civilian areas)

There is a difference between a nation attacking another nation while engaged in a declared war, when both sides obey the various applicable laws of war (ref: Dresden, the various bombings of Japanese cities, etc during WW2) and a faction attacking a sovereign nation in a guerilla war.

Also, the Résistance was resisting a foreign invader--something Hezbollah cannot today claim to, unlike when Israel was occupying Lebanon.

Basically, Hezbollah can try and make itself seem as "just another movement," but it's not. They're about as legitimate as the Gestapo. Their previous aims, such as "liberating" Lebanon from Israeli occupation, have been achieved, and their other aims (creating an islamic republic) are not going to happen unless something changes in Lebanon. As far as I can tell from my reading on the subject, the Lebanese people don't condemn Hezbollah, but they don't want to live in an Islamic armpit of a nation like Iran, either. Only through force will Hezbollah achieve it's aims, and I doubt Israel, or even the Lebanese government itself, will let it happen without a fight.
 
From the article:
[[[ "An act is labelled terrorism "if it is intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act." From Kofi Annan and first used by the first Chair of the Security Council Committee on Terrorism, UK Ambassador Sir Jeremy Greenstock. ]]]

Ive belaboured this point in other threads:
- groups of two or more people (a single person committing a act of self-fulfillment, alone, is recognized as a criminal acting against society, not a terrorist; otherwise every employee who goes postal, every road rage driver, and every mass murderer would be a terrorist)
- not affiliated with a recognized national government (if they are recognized as legitimate political groups or governments they may become 'rogue' but are no longer labelled as terrorists; i.e. HAMAS has not been recognized as a legitmate government until it renounces its support of terrorism towards Israel)
- development of a political agenda or goal (violence motivated by self-fulfillment and without political cause are considered criminal acts)
- a statement of opposition targeting a government, organization, or specific population group (this is usually the target of the political goal, not the target of the violence)
- acts against an 'innocent' civilian population in order to influence or remove support from a government, organization or specific populatino group (this is usually the target of the violence, not the target of the political goal)
- acts of violence against, or attempts to commit violence against, or threats of violence against 'innocent' civilian population targets using whatever means developed.


Whats wrong with Annan's definition:
- "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm":
a) this refers to individual acts when it should refer to the stated political goal of the organization (i.e. Hamas's 'death to all Israeli's)
b) does not take into account propoganda, hoaxes, or psychological warfare which are tools of both armies and terrorists

- "civilians or non-combatants"
a) the definition of a civilian and non-combatant in terrorism is still being argued to this day.  Is a banker who funnels money to a terrorist group labelled a 'civilian'?  Is a terrorist on holiday in Canada (after commiting acts of violence overseas) now labelled as a 'non-combatant'?  Is a retired counter-terrorist army officer now a 'civilian'? If a terrorist is always a terrorist, then is a soldier always a soldier? You cant define a term when the terms in the definition have yet to be adequately defined.
b) even if the target were army soldiers, who are not 'civilians and non-combatants', the act would still be an act of terrorism if a state of war has not been declared and the forces conducting the acts do not identify themselves as a unique 'regular military force' (or militia). (i.e. the Taliban is recognized as an opposition force, therefore their acts are of military violence not terrorist violence)

- "with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act."
a) okay, now this one I can agree with!
 
The Gestapo were a government created para mil police organization, operating under a mandate handed down by the (somewhat) legally elected Chancellor of Germany.  A bunch of bad guys, for sure, but " chust followink orders".
 
So were the Ton-Ton Macoute, the KGB, and a ton of other government-controlled agencies all around the world.  Because their own government granted them existence and legitimacy, they cant be regarded as 'terrorists' despite their commonly using 'terrorist tactics'.  Otherwise, the 'grey' agencies of many allied western countries could also have been openly labelled as 'terrorists' by politically opposing nations.  It turns into a tit-for-tat game.  Same goes for the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and the PRNK Army, both of whom are known to have aided terrorist groups and even reputed to have committed 'terrorist acts' themeselves, they cannot be labelled as terrorist groups because they are an extension of a legally recognized national government.

 
Centurian1985 said:
So were the Ton-Ton Macoute, the KGB, and a ton of other government-controlled agencies all around the world.  Because their own government granted them existence and legitimacy, they cant be regarded as 'terrorists' despite their commonly using 'terrorist tactics'.  Otherwise, the 'grey' agencies of many allied western countries could also have been openly labelled as 'terrorists' by politically opposing nations.  It turns into a tit-for-tat game.  Same goes for the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and the PRNK Army, both of whom are known to have aided terrorist groups and even reputed to have committed 'terrorist acts' themeselves, they cannot be labelled as terrorist groups because they are an extension of a legally recognized national government.

This is all fine and dandy but hizbolah is NOT a legitimate branch of the Lebenese government.

and i beleive the correct term is DPRK..............not PRNK
 
cdnaviator said:
This is all fine and dandy but hizbolah is NOT a legitimate branch of the Lebenese government.

That was my point.
 
cdnaviator said:
This is all fine and dandy but hizbolah is NOT a legitimate branch of the Lebenese government. And i beleive the correct term is DPRK..............not PRNK

My error, yes should read 'DPRK'.
 
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