Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread

[Jed]

A second that, GAP. With such small numbers, this would be the best policy for them and the greater CF.

 

[OldSolduer]

Boy there sure is a lot of hand wringing over a minuscule number of pers....I'm not talking about the malingerers, but the injured vets. So long as the numbers a low, LEAVE THEM ALONE.

When it gets into the thousands revisit it...

my :2c:

I agree with you, its not a huge number. In my view the problem lies in  Universality of Service and how its applied.

IMO not everyone in the CF needs to be deployable and to a certain extent, not everyone in the CF will be deployable at any given time.

 

[Nemo888]

Till VAC and the CF transition program work properly I can't think of any other way to look after our shared responsibility for our brothers in arms.  It's not that many. That kicking them out is being considered given the current knowledge of how cosmetic and dysfunctional the system is disturbs me. It is much better than 2005. I will give them that. But it needs at least  5 more years to be fixed IMO.

 

[McG]

Boy there sure is a lot of hand wringing over a minuscule number of pers....I'm not talking about the malingerers, but the injured vets. So long as the numbers a low, LEAVE THEM ALONE.

When it gets into the thousands revisit it...

my :2c:

The CF does already have too many people, and it is by four digits in at least one occupation.  Your threshold of excess has already been met.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Sad thing to add... but doing the IPT program. Seeing some folks fail the EXPRES test, and then the BFT (Tap out at 2km mark). But yet, still deploys, while the rest of us have to do both fitness tests. Fair or what?

Only thing wrong with them, is the lack of PT they do. Also over weight and smokes... hmm.

Regards,
TN2IC




*edit for spelling*

DING DING DING!  There ya go, smokers!  Kick em all out.  after all they ARE committing slow suicide by ingesting a massive number of toxic components into their bodies, a clearly self inflicted wound.  THAT ought to free up a few positions for new crossfit commandos.

 

[gun runner]

Don't forget the alcoholics, chronic pill poppers, dope heads, and anyone with mental disabilities from training injuries if you are going to paint with that brush. And trust me..alcoholics outnumber the smokers 3/1. Fact, not fiction!

 

[Kat Stevens]

Don't forget the alcoholics, chronic pill poppers, dope heads, and anyone with mental disabilities from training injuries if you are going to paint with that brush. And trust me..alcoholics outnumber the smokers 3/1. Fact, not fiction!

I'd like to see the document to back that one up.

 

[Snakedoc]

"As long as they are employable, if they don't want to leave the Canadian Forces we are going to look to provide them options to stay in the forces in areas where the overlying principle of universality of service doesn't apply."

He said the two main areas for that is employment with the cadet program or with the Rangers in Canada's North. There could be training or administrative jobs with either organization.

For my own curiousity (as I genuinly don't know), but does the principle of universality of service not apply to members serving in the cadet program or the Canadian Rangers?  I thought (but may be mistaken) that this applied to all members of the CF in uniform; but I guess it would make sense if it didn't for those elements of the CF that do not deploy to areas of combat. 

Or did the Admiral mean employment with the cadet program or Canadian Rangers as civilians working for the CF/DND?

 

[Northalbertan]

CIC members are not deployable.  The fitness standard is different.  And CIC can serve until age 65.

 

[CombatDoc]

Don't forget the alcoholics, chronic pill poppers, dope heads, and anyone with mental disabilities from training injuries if you are going to paint with that brush. And trust me..alcoholics outnumber the smokers 3/1. Fact, not fiction!

Let's use 25% as the estimate of CF members who smoke (perhaps an underestimate, especially in the sandbox).  That leaves the remaining 75% of the CF - i.e. 3:1 - as alcoholics.  We can confidently conclude, therefore, that if you don't smoke you must be alcoholic.  :nod:

Sorry gun runner, I'm not buying your math.  Not sure where you're getting your facts, but they don't correspond with my observations regarding addictions within the CF. My $0.02.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

And trust me..alcoholics outnumber the smokers 3/1. Fact, not fiction!

I don't normally bother with this kind of post, but I am going to parse your statement:

Trust me

Why?  Based on what experience and / or expertise?

alcoholics outnumber the smokers 3/1

According to...?

Fact, not fiction!

Stating an opinion in an assertive manner (or with an exclamation point) does not make it a "fact".  A "fact" is, according to OED, a "thing certainly known to have occurred or to be true....a thing that is indisputably the case"

Please present a fact that supports your statement.

 

[gun runner]

Experience...3 yrs on the guns. I have been to a lot of course smokers, seen a lot of parties, been hammered more than a few times and yes, I smoked. But back in the eighties that was a norm. It was a different army. We did PT every day regardless of the weather, that hasn't changed..has it? We worked hard, and partied hard. The majority of the battery members that served were out until o-dark stupid getting loaded, just to start all over again the next day. Getting drunk/high,whatever was just what happened when you were not smacking bullets downrange. Spent more than a few paycheques at the jr.ranks mess in Shilo, and loved every freakin' minute of it. My 2 cents.

 

[MJP]

Experience...3 yrs on the guns. I have been to a lot of course smokers, seen a lot of parties, been hammered more than a few times and yes, I smoked. But back in the eighties that was a norm. It was a different army. We did PT every day regardless of the weather, that hasn't changed..has it? We worked hard, and partied hard. The majority of the battery members that served were out until o-dark stupid getting loaded, just to start all over again the next day. Getting drunk/high,whatever was just what happened when you were not smacking bullets downrange. Spent more than a few paycheques at the jr.ranks mess in Shilo, and loved every freakin' minute of it. My 2 cents.

So anecdotal evidence based within a very small time frame gathered in your infallible memory almost 20 years ago, not actual empirical evidence.  Empirical evidence being the kind of evidence that you usually need to support the kind of claims you are making. 


edited for typo

 

[gun runner]

Like I said, it was a different army back then. We didn't run marathons for the hell of it. It wasn't expected of us. We worked and partied when the mess opened. Todays Forces are different. The expectations are higher, much higher than I was dealing with. I am now a CIC due to the fact that my hearing loss from my ' very small time frame' of experience,and my age prevents me from serving in a more dynamic capacity. I did not post to piss people off. That was not my intention. I merely stated that the Forces has more than one vice to contend with within the ranks. And all vices will inhibit function. Not just smokers. I served with guys that would puff back 3/4 to a full pack a day and still run 5 miles in the morning. Food for thought. Ubique

 

[dogger1936]

I think some of those full time CIC positions should be opened up to injured guys. I know it wouldn't be for everyone however giving back to the community could be therapeutic.

 

[catalyst]

They are - one of the aims of COATS was to allow injured/wounded NCMs and Officers to serve - and the positions aren't just at a cadet corps. Some positions are of course, designated CIC (in which you would have to transfer) but the majority will be COATS designated in the future.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I thought Hillier made it a rule that you can't be promoted unless you pass your PT test?

Or is it a rule that mostly kind of usually gets followed.


Everyone always LOLz at the various sizes of people working at NDHQ. Yea, some of them are big. I really don't care THAT much that a clerk in charge of correcting someones spelling mistakes has a huge butt.  What I find worse is the malingerers. We all know who they are, we all see them.  They eek out an existence never deploying never going on ex- all because the CF has made it crazy hard to nail them to the wall.

I have no idea how but a soldier in my unit spent every day of his Dp1 infantry course in the MIR.  People were making fun of him for it and his defense was that it wasn't every day, he wasn't at the MIR for 3 days of his course.  Yet he passed.  I've gone on runs with him and rucksack marches, he's fine just out of shape.  He's CTing to aerospace controller.  We all have stories of MIR commandos making a mockery of the system.

STOP these guys on their basic training/trade course. 

 

[aesop081]

I thought Hillier made it a rule that you can't be promoted unless you pass your PT test?

Or is it a rule that mostly kind of usually gets followed.

Its a rule alright. If you dont have a valid pass/exempt, you cannot get promoted until you have passed the test. Once you pass, you can have your promotion. If you dont have a valid pass by December 31st of the year you were selected for promotion, you lose that promotion and have to compete again at the next selection board.

 

[Armymedic]

But you don't have to be promotable to be employable.

Lets not confuse the issue.

 

[Dissident]

My thoughts:

Universality of service is necessary.

BUT.

I would like to see service members wounded in service the chance to work for the recruiting center, a la "Starship Troopers". If a wounded vet still can still sell the CF to applicants, all the while being a graphic reminder of the commitment it entails, I would think it would doubly or triply serve us.