Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread

[Kat Stevens]

Well, I'm a former Corporal, how may I enlighten your day today?

 

[GAP]

Well, I'm a former Corporal, how may I enlighten your day today?

I'll one up you....I was both a LanceCorporal and a Corporal.......... ;D

uh.....on second thought.....belay that.......... :camo:

 

[dapaterson]

I'll one up you....I was both a LanceCorporal and a Corporal.......... ;D

In which order?  ANd how many times each?

 

[QM]

What an absolutely gut-wrenching topic. The poor bastards who get injured for Canada - bless them, thank them.  Its impossible to not be emotionally charged about this.

There is a "but", of course. I doubt that the sailor who breaks his back while fixing a broken rigging on a ship in Halifax, feels that his debilitating injury is any less significant than that of a soldier who loses a leg to an IED.  Both were injured serving Canada. There are also a hell of a lot of "repetitive use" injuries - guys in their 40's who wear out their bodies after years of abuse in a demanding job, and breach U of S. Emotionally, we tend to put our support more behind the guy injured in combat than the guy injured on garrison duties, or training in Wainwright, and we would like to treat combat veterans differently. But if you are the sailor with a broken back, do you really think you deserve lesser treatment than a young Patricia who lost his leg? Both were serving Canada.  Even the wrench bender who wears out his hip after 22 years of walking back and forth across various maintenance shops in shitty non-supportive boots carrying spare parts and twisting underneath engine casings, was injured in service to Canada. His injury just isn't as glorious as the guy injured in Afghanistan.

There has to be one standard for injured personnel. Its not fair to do otherwise.  Sadly there is limited capacity in our small military to absorb non-deployable personnel for more than a few years. To me, though, our obligation is to ensure that they never become unemployed, regardless of whether they are fit enough to wear a uniform. Whether that is through more robust application of Priority Referral status (whereby an injured military member has first crack at suitable civil service jobs), by paying for re-training or education after injury, by new legislation giving incentives to civilian companies to hire wounded veterans, or some other mechanism, DND (indeed the Gov't at large) needs to bend over backwards to ensure our injured personnel always have the ability to earn a living. Indefinite retention of all injured personnel, though, would render the CF non-deployable.  It just can't work, as emotionally painful as it is to say that.

NB: when I joined in 1989, the only people with huge racks of medals were Siggies and Sup Techs, as they had deployed on every freaking UN mission imaginable. A select few Inf/Armd/Arty guys had the Cyprus medal, and an infinitesimal number of Offrs/CWO's had UN gongs from observer medals. The battalions simply didn't deploy anywhere buy Cyprus. If we don't get another mission after Kabul ends, we'll revert to that situation, and talk of one's worth being determined by the number of medals on his chest will dry up. (but since that's not yet the case, please note that I have 6 !)

 

[Journeyman]

Well, I'm a former Corporal, how may I enlighten your day today?

You too?
PM inbound 

 

[childs56]

So you would rather see a Service member who gets injured in the line of duty be given three years afterwards then transistion to a civilain life. Who may not actually be able to peform a civilian job but the Military did the right thing and gave them three more years.  Wow many people who get out of the Military with out an injury and have a hard enough time coping with the Civilian life let alone with a serious injury.

So most of you agree that there are no positions with in the Canadian Forces, Civilian or Miltary side that they could gainfully employ members who were hurt while on Active Duty.

Right on lets not look outside of the box to see if there is a way to make it work for the better of all. afterall getting short changed on your pay check for the next 20 o so years is awesome.

By the way how are our Griffons doing over there? Some of you arguing there is no way to make this work also said they would never deploy those. It truly is amazing what happens when one thinks outside of the box.  The US Army has soldiers who are amputees deployed back ovoerseas, what one can do when the will is there.

Sorry but when a soldier Joins up they can expect to be deployed for one year, home for a year and redeployed again, Afterall it is the Military and that is what they do. (I have to make a disclaimer here, Deployed means Work up training included/ Home for a year also means attending training for carrer advancement) Plus any other day to day work required. 

 

[aesop081]

By the way how are our Griffons doing over there? Some of you arguing there is no way to make this work also said they would never deploy those. It truly is amazing what happens when one thinks outside of the box. 

How did this one work out for you then ?

as for the Hercs yes buy the new J models (actually strive for the Z model it will take to long to approve the J model then the J will be outdated)

Project started in 2008........First canadian CC-130J arrives in Canada June 4th 2010.......Arrives for operations in Afghanistan 1 Jan 2011. Good call on the timeline CTD, you sure were outside the box there  :

 

[childs56]

I have worked with Supply Techs and have a few of them as friends. I have seen the difference between the Sup Techs working in Shilo Manitoba, CFB Esquamalt, CFB Cold Lake and CFB Wainwright. I have also seen the difference of the Base Supply compared to a Front Line Unit. Ie CFB COld Lakes Base Clothing Stores, material management and the Sqn Stores. Along with CFB Shilo Base Supply and Regimental and Battery QM/ Supply.
I also had the short pleasure of working in the Company QM during the Forest fires in BC. Needless to say it is a thankless job that both My Warrent and myself did not fully appreciate till we were doing the job. Up at 0430 to get ready for issue of the day, nap just before noon, deliver food and supplys for noon, back get ready for return of troops. supper, clean and organize, nap then around midnight be up to get supplys from Brigade Supply, organize done around 02-0300hrs, Sleep back up at 0430 again.

You can have your job, but to say there is not room in your job or other jobs with in the CF s to employ injured members in a Base situation is not thinking like one should. I hope that one day you never get get hurt where the Miltary will terminate your employment.

I did say that there are numerous jobs on bases across Canada that could be staffed, Civilian or Miltary. That would not effect the operational status of the Military. Nor put a hinderance on your Non Operational jobs to get away from the Deployments.

But no matter what I say or try to explain it is falling on deaf ears, so be it that is why this is a discussion board.

Cheers all

 

[OldSolduer]

As I stated earlier, the principle of Universality of Service is the policy we have in the CF that governs who stays and who is released. While it would be desireable to see everyone that was ill or injured in the CF to be employed, we have polices, and laws that state otherwise. THAT is the cold hard fact.

There are programs in place in the CF and VAC that will assist wounded/ill/injured members to transition to civilian life.

While I'm at it, don't tell "us"  how we should be thinking. "We" have spent virtually a lifetime in the CF and really hate to see our wounded/ill/injured released.

Your little dig at "deaf ears" tells me much about you and your knowledge of the subject. As a suggestion, you may want to read up on the subject.

 

[GAP]

In which order?  ANd how many times each?

They kept getting them mixed up, and would ask me to          errrr......step back to clear the bottleneck and then come back, why, sometimes we had to step all the way back to private first class, just to help out those poor souls..... and mend our ways.........funny, we never did much sewing, so I'm not quite sure what the mending was all about..... ;D

 

[Pusser]

I have worked with Supply Techs and have a few of them as friends. I have seen the difference between the Sup Techs working in Shilo Manitoba, CFB Esquamalt, CFB Cold Lake and CFB Wainwright. I have also seen the difference of the Base Supply compared to a Front Line Unit. Ie CFB COld Lakes Base Clothing Stores, material management and the Sqn Stores. Along with CFB Shilo Base Supply and Regimental and Battery QM/ Supply.
I also had the short pleasure of working in the Company QM during the Forest fires in BC. Needless to say it is a thankless job that both My Warrent and myself did not fully appreciate till we were doing the job. Up at 0430 to get ready for issue of the day, nap just before noon, deliver food and supplys for noon, back get ready for return of troops. supper, clean and organize, nap then around midnight be up to get supplys from Brigade Supply, organize done around 02-0300hrs, Sleep back up at 0430 again.

You can have your job, but to say there is not room in your job or other jobs with in the CF s to employ injured members in a Base situation is not thinking like one should. I hope that one day you never get get hurt where the Miltary will terminate your employment.

I did say that there are numerous jobs on bases across Canada that could be staffed, Civilian or Miltary. That would not effect the operational status of the Military. Nor put a hinderance on your Non Operational jobs to get away from the Deployments.

But no matter what I say or try to explain it is falling on deaf ears, so be it that is why this is a discussion board.

Cheers all

I have seen several good people, including friends of mine, released from the CF for what I considered poor reasons.  As a result, when I have been in positions to try and change things, I have done so to the best of my ability.  A good example of this was the BMI policy we had years ago.  I never supported it and said so at every opportunity.  Over time the policy was adjusted and finally dropped altogether (as well it should have been).  The reason this happened is because senior leadership listened, assessed and acted accordingly.  Thus your criticism of deaf ears is unfair and unwarranted.  Just because people don't agree with you, doesn't mean they're not listening or taking your thoughts into account.

The simple truth here is that you seem to lack a working knowledge of how the CF is populated and the controls under which we live.  The government dictates how many people we enroll and we have to live within that ceiling.  We manage the best we can and I can say without any doubt in my mind that the CF does not look for ways to get rid of people (FRP - mandated by government - aside).  Part of the reason it takes as long as it does to medically release people is that the system looks for ways to keep them in.  A full assessment is undertaken to determine whether a member can in fact be retained. I've actually seen cases where individuals who wanted to get out were frustrated by the amount of time it was taking.  Once they informed the system that they actually wanted out, things went very quickly as the system stopped looking for ways to keep them.  By the way, we do have amputees who are not being released and I recall recently that at least one has actually returned to Afghanistan.

I note that you have actually changed your tune a bit.  When you started you were pushing for full career retention of injured members.  Now you're saying that putting them in civilian positions would be OK.  I think you'll find that none of us here are against that and in fact, many of us recommend it.  Making sure that injured veterans are looked after is very important, but retaining them in the CF when they cannot meet the U of S simply isn't practical.  Other solutions are available and in use.

 

[childs56]

Hmm interesting, I said we could keep them employed within the Canadian Forces my mistake I should have said Department of National Defence, I also stated that there were many positions with in the CF (DND) that could be used to employ these inured members, then I was told that there was no way to employ these members further because it will take away jobs from others.  The Candian Forces (DND) Employs more then Just Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen. It also has a very large civilian continigents that encompasses not only direct  military support but also support to other agencies as well.

I never once said keep "full career retention of injured members",  but I did say to keep them employed till their retirement at proper pay scales and benifits. Again there are may jobs that can be filled.

Again the CANADIAN FORCES is composed of more then just the Navy, Army and Airforce.

 

[Container]

I believe the public services in the Canadian Forces at large has reached critical mass and they are on a no-hire until a good portion retires. My wife is a public servant with the RCMP and they received some emails basically suggesting the same.

Its unfortunate that its not as easy to move around some public servants. Its would be good idea to fill those positions firstly with or wounded- or at least in my own mind right now it is im sure one of you can tell me why its not, if we could move some public servants in to other sectors of the public service it would keep the wounded in the family, suply them with rewarding work and keep things running.

Perhaps an incentive program to get PS's to lateral in to some other departments is in order?

 

[OldSolduer]

While I agree that perhaps keeping our folk in the Department in principle, in practice I think (IMO) would be difficult. First, we have a union to deal with that may not be as favorable to this solution as we are.
Second, all those other departments where our current civilians would go to also have a union to deal with, who may not look upon our solution as favorably as they might.

My two cents, plus GST.

 

[the 48th regulator]

CTD,

Those that are medically released receive Vocational Rehab from SISIP, Then from VAC, and are offered Priority Hiring through the Public Service (All departments).  So what you are asking is pretty much being done.  The idea is to empower the soldier to take  charge of their own lifes, and move foward.

dileas

tess

 

[OldSolduer]

And that is the Key!! The soldier must do it. IWe cannot sit in class for them nor do the job interviews.

 

[Pusser]

Again the CANADIAN FORCES is composed of more then just the Navy, Army and Airforce.

No, they most definitely are not.  The Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence are distinctly separate entities.  Members of the CF are not employees of DND (note the separate pay and administrative systems) and vice versa.  If you're going to press an argument, you need to get the terminology and details correct or you'll get pummeled.  If you had clearly stated from the outset that you felt personnel released due to injury should be employed as public servants, you would have had much more support.  However, you didn't say that and thus the dogpile began...

 

[dapaterson]

Of course, there are public servants who are employed by the Canadian Forces (like a Base Commander's secretary), and members of the Canadian Forces who are employed within the Department of National Defence (like those CF members working in many of the ADMs in Ottawa).  Just to keep people confused.

 

[McG]

Again the CANADIAN FORCES is composed of more then just the Navy, Army and Airforce.

Half the problem in your argument may be that you do not know the meaning of the terms that you are using.  The Canadian Forces is composed soley of military personnel.  DND employees are not part of the Canadian Forces.  If you want to provide guaranteed employment in DND on a medical release and you present this idea by stating that "wounded personnel have a right to stay in the Canadian Forces" then you will be missunderstood by everyone who understands the topic.

I believe the public services in the Canadian Forces at large has reached critical mass ...

There are indeed more DND employees that we are supposed to have.

 

[ballz]

I have been trying to follow this thread but I don't really understand a lot of the issues at hand...

But one thing that just popped into my head that I think could be one of these "static" positions that a non-deployable soldier/sailor/airman or airwoman could be of a huge benefit to everybody would be as a ULO...

This is my 3rd year as an ROTP entrant. I have had at least 4 ULOs. It is generally a secondary duty, that really burdens people that have enough on their hands. There is a lot of in's and out's to learn, and generally when they start getting it down path we get a new ULO, and they go through the same learning curve. I've been blessed being in a small place where the ULOs generally don't have a ton of students under them, and so far for the most part they've done what they can. However, right now it's the station's chief clerk. We both agree that subsidized programs have more than a few wrinkles to iron out, and he has enough on his plate without babysitting (sometimes that's what it probably feels like) a bunch of people that really have little to no experience in the military, especially the many administrative things.

The best situation I had was a 2Lt who was awaiting medical release, as an "assistant ULO," and it was one of his primary duties. He did an unreal job, and as the PO2 said to the SEM, "I don't know what we're going to do with all these students without him." He went through the ROTP program, and spent maybe 2 years in the position. He made everything easier for everybody.

The solution to the problem was always easy, somebody needed it to be their primary duty, and actually spend at least a few years in the position so they could learn what they're doing before they're shuffled off somewhere else, but I could see why it couldn't be justified. But now, thinking about this, and about wounded soldiers, I think maybe it could be?

I realise there's not enough ULO positions to fill to solve the problem, but I dunno, I'm just throwing it out there. It's somewhat of an option?

And this is coming from somebody that's had a relatively good go with ULOs. There are many, many horror stories, I only have a few to speak of.