Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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SHARP WO said:
The regulations in WW II actually specified that the cord was attached to a whistle for officers, and a clasp knife for Other Ranks. How things change...
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The regulations in WW II actually specified that the cord was attached to a whistle for officers, and a clasp knife for Other Ranks. How things change...
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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SHARP WO said:
And since time immoral members of the RCD have taken offense to being referred to as Reservists.
GW
the 48th regulator
Army.ca Fixture
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SHARP WO said:
I'll say, even after I was given one at the end of my tour with them, and put in the first battalion history books, I wiould still get some characters try to correct me. In the end all was well when we went up to the mess. Except I even had one MCPL Call the unit to complain and correct me, hehe it was hilarious because they too used the whistle cord expression to get him off the phone.
God bless 'em, "Do or die" I guess.
tess
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To all
The gunners did loose their guns. It was the RCR that fired them a I believe at Paardeberg when the Gunners left, that is why the Royals have a Lanyard of white. As for the Dragoons, George! They have the colours of Canadian Regts. ie Arty, Engs, RCD. But we have the gold for "The Royal" desination. I have two RCD lanyards and they are Scarlet,Gold,Blue. We havea lanyard from 1900; Komati River, South Africa(Leliefontein) (Safeing of the Guns!).
As for which side, it has been Officers Left, NCOs Right. I have a few pictures of this.
As for loosing their guns, that is why D Bty had always served us for Leliefontein. And had to pull their gun on parade. The first one back in Canada 87. The fellas from D Bty did all the duties for a week and the mess dinners and the all ranks dance.
:evil: :tank:
The gunners did loose their guns. It was the RCR that fired them a I believe at Paardeberg when the Gunners left, that is why the Royals have a Lanyard of white. As for the Dragoons, George! They have the colours of Canadian Regts. ie Arty, Engs, RCD. But we have the gold for "The Royal" desination. I have two RCD lanyards and they are Scarlet,Gold,Blue. We havea lanyard from 1900; Komati River, South Africa(Leliefontein) (Safeing of the Guns!).
As for which side, it has been Officers Left, NCOs Right. I have a few pictures of this.
As for loosing their guns, that is why D Bty had always served us for Leliefontein. And had to pull their gun on parade. The first one back in Canada 87. The fellas from D Bty did all the duties for a week and the mess dinners and the all ranks dance.
:evil: :tank:
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Recce 41
You've lost me. Scarlet, Gold and Blue are the Regimental colours and those are the colours used in the RCD lanyard. Yes, officers and ORs wore their lanyards on different sides at various time of our history, but I believe in the end all wore the lanyard on the same side.
Stories of the 'lost Guns' are told over and over and in one story it is in South Africa and in an other it is in WW I. As for D Bty always serving us for Leliefontein being a result of that, it is most likely fiction. D Bty was not in Germany and the RCHA still participated in those activities. It was a mutual agreement between the Regiments to do each others duties and free the members of their Regiments to partake in Regimental celebrations. The RCHA would do the duties for the RCD during Leliefontein and the RCD would reciprocate and do the duties for the RCHA during St Barbara's Day celebrations.
GW
You've lost me. Scarlet, Gold and Blue are the Regimental colours and those are the colours used in the RCD lanyard. Yes, officers and ORs wore their lanyards on different sides at various time of our history, but I believe in the end all wore the lanyard on the same side.
Stories of the 'lost Guns' are told over and over and in one story it is in South Africa and in an other it is in WW I. As for D Bty always serving us for Leliefontein being a result of that, it is most likely fiction. D Bty was not in Germany and the RCHA still participated in those activities. It was a mutual agreement between the Regiments to do each others duties and free the members of their Regiments to partake in Regimental celebrations. The RCHA would do the duties for the RCD during Leliefontein and the RCD would reciprocate and do the duties for the RCHA during St Barbara's Day celebrations.
GW
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Recce41 said:
We have discussed and dismissed this issue more than once. There is no support for this myth in any of the RCR histories that I have read. Please provide a concrete reference.
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Actually, I think Canadian Regts have more colours than just those: for example in the PPCLI we have French Grey. And, if I'm not mistaken, in the Commonwealth system Royal Blue is actually the facing colour for "Royal" Regiments, not gold. IE: RCR, RCA, CME, R22eR, RRegtC, etc.
Also, I would really like to see proof that ANY Canadian Regiment, Branch, or Corps actually preserves any item of dress, tradition or practice that is intended as a "dishonour". I keep hearing this stuff, but I have yet to see any proof. Why would anybody bother preserving an embarassment? The only case of this I have ever heard of, and I can't recall the unit now, was that of a British Regt that, during Wellington's Peninsular Campaign, broke into a convent and pillaged and raped. The sentence (IIRC) passed by the War Office was that the Regt'l band, in perpetuity, was to play hymns at sunset each day. Other than that I'm not aware of a substantiated example.
Cheers.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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pbi said:
The same story is told of the "notch' cut out of the Black Watch spats. They definitely wear a different pattern. When the Regular Force battalions were disbanded, the kit was disbursed to other units "in the system". I've seen Cameron Highlanders wering the notched spats, for example, probably unaware of the "dishonour" connotations...
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George
If you look at the Eng, Arty, RCD, etc. They have Scarlet and Blue. These are the two colours given to Common Canadian Regts. Just as Scarlet and Green are Horse Regts ie LdSH/Sask Ds, not counting Royal Horse IE GGHG which is Deep red and Purple ( Deep Blue) or CMRs FGH Gold and Blk. Ex Inf Regts may have kept their Inf related colours.
Each Colour is to represent Metal, Colour or Cloth(furs). These go back to Coat of Arms. Ie Red means Fortitude and Blue means Loyalty. There are also colour president. ie Red over Blue. or Blue over Red. You may never see Green over Blue or Blue over Green. Gold is for Valour. Which is given to Royal Regts. Royal Blue is a French thing.
These colours are also from the uniform colours. Colour with uniform facing. ie the Blues Blue with Red Facing, ie GGHG and the Royal Dragoons (1st Dragoons) Red with Blue Facing. ie the RCD. British/Canadian Arty wore Blue with Red and Engs (Sappers) were Red with Blue. Rifle Regts were Green with Blk. Non Royal Horse and Non Regt of Foot Inf wore Red with Green
In other Countries ie France they were Royal Blue with Red. Austria were White with Royal Blue or Red. Russian wre Green with Red.
I got most of this info from some of the books I have. Plus I'm a history buff.
As for D Bty, They did start to serve us in Petawawa until 92. And remember why they pull the cannon. There are also take offs of our British Brothern. Cut spats, The Walsh with their Blk ribbon. etc.
If you look at the Eng, Arty, RCD, etc. They have Scarlet and Blue. These are the two colours given to Common Canadian Regts. Just as Scarlet and Green are Horse Regts ie LdSH/Sask Ds, not counting Royal Horse IE GGHG which is Deep red and Purple ( Deep Blue) or CMRs FGH Gold and Blk. Ex Inf Regts may have kept their Inf related colours.
Each Colour is to represent Metal, Colour or Cloth(furs). These go back to Coat of Arms. Ie Red means Fortitude and Blue means Loyalty. There are also colour president. ie Red over Blue. or Blue over Red. You may never see Green over Blue or Blue over Green. Gold is for Valour. Which is given to Royal Regts. Royal Blue is a French thing.
These colours are also from the uniform colours. Colour with uniform facing. ie the Blues Blue with Red Facing, ie GGHG and the Royal Dragoons (1st Dragoons) Red with Blue Facing. ie the RCD. British/Canadian Arty wore Blue with Red and Engs (Sappers) were Red with Blue. Rifle Regts were Green with Blk. Non Royal Horse and Non Regt of Foot Inf wore Red with Green
In other Countries ie France they were Royal Blue with Red. Austria were White with Royal Blue or Red. Russian wre Green with Red.
I got most of this info from some of the books I have. Plus I'm a history buff.
As for D Bty, They did start to serve us in Petawawa until 92. And remember why they pull the cannon. There are also take offs of our British Brothern. Cut spats, The Walsh with their Blk ribbon. etc.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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pbi said:
Oh, I quite agree; I meant to say that the notched spat has not been proven to my satisfaction either, just another example of these kinds of myth being perpetuated.
I am quite surprised you haven't mentioned the chicken yet, PBI, given your regimental affiliation...
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Recce 41
Yes the various Regiments may have the same colours in their Coats of Arms, etc. but their Regimental cloth, ties, LANYARDs, kilts, ascots, etc will all have different PATTERNS. Although a Regiment may have the same heraldic colours as yours, does not mean that they are used in the same 'quantity' as your regiments. One may have a predominance of blue, while another will have just a hint of blue, in their Regimental colours, cloth, tie, etc. The RCD lanyard is unique to the RCD, as is the RCR to the RCR, and the LdSH(RC) to the LdSH(RC), and on and on.
When it comes to D Bty of 2 RCHA being on parade for Leliefontein, it is not for a dishonour of loosing their Guns, but for the honour of being able to save their Guns in close cooperation with the RCD. D Bty, "The Ottawa Valley Boys", were very close to the RCD having been raised in close proximity to the RCD. In South Africa it was they and the RCD who saved the flying column from the Boers at Leliefontein, not just the RCD. Don't forget that Lt Morrison, although he did not win a VC, won the DSO for his command of those two guns.
In respect to Dishonour; white is usually a symbolic colour of dishonour. We have the stories of the White Feathers and such. The question being, as that the Artillery have a White Lanyard, why and when did that come about? Is is due to a dishonour in the past or to the 'anal' practices of cleanliness in some circles? (I know we have covered this in other threads)
GW
Yes the various Regiments may have the same colours in their Coats of Arms, etc. but their Regimental cloth, ties, LANYARDs, kilts, ascots, etc will all have different PATTERNS. Although a Regiment may have the same heraldic colours as yours, does not mean that they are used in the same 'quantity' as your regiments. One may have a predominance of blue, while another will have just a hint of blue, in their Regimental colours, cloth, tie, etc. The RCD lanyard is unique to the RCD, as is the RCR to the RCR, and the LdSH(RC) to the LdSH(RC), and on and on.
When it comes to D Bty of 2 RCHA being on parade for Leliefontein, it is not for a dishonour of loosing their Guns, but for the honour of being able to save their Guns in close cooperation with the RCD. D Bty, "The Ottawa Valley Boys", were very close to the RCD having been raised in close proximity to the RCD. In South Africa it was they and the RCD who saved the flying column from the Boers at Leliefontein, not just the RCD. Don't forget that Lt Morrison, although he did not win a VC, won the DSO for his command of those two guns.
In respect to Dishonour; white is usually a symbolic colour of dishonour. We have the stories of the White Feathers and such. The question being, as that the Artillery have a White Lanyard, why and when did that come about? Is is due to a dishonour in the past or to the 'anal' practices of cleanliness in some circles? (I know we have covered this in other threads)
GW
Gunner
Army.ca Veteran
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Everything you wanted to know about the lanyard.
http://livefiring.ashst.com/artillery_heritage/whatswhat/lanyard.htm
Read "The Gunners of Canada" overview of Leliefontein at:
http://www.artillery.net/english/RCA Standing Orders.pdf
You can also read about the excellent cooperation between the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery with PPCLI, RCD, and RCR.
No cowardice has ever been proven about the artillery.
Cheers,
http://livefiring.ashst.com/artillery_heritage/whatswhat/lanyard.htm
Read "The Gunners of Canada" overview of Leliefontein at:
http://www.artillery.net/english/RCA Standing Orders.pdf
You can also read about the excellent cooperation between the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery with PPCLI, RCD, and RCR.
No cowardice has ever been proven about the artillery.
Cheers,
P
pro patria
Guest
Quick reply on the lanyard,
The lanyard serves a purpose attached to it is the inkerman whistle, Front the battle of Inkerman the infantry nco`s were awarded for their gallantry in battle the inkerman whistle, at that present time only officers worn the whistle in battle. However with there huge casualty rate the nco`s took the officer whistle and rayled the soldiers and defeated the enemy
The lanyard serves a purpose attached to it is the inkerman whistle, Front the battle of Inkerman the infantry nco`s were awarded for their gallantry in battle the inkerman whistle, at that present time only officers worn the whistle in battle. However with there huge casualty rate the nco`s took the officer whistle and rayled the soldiers and defeated the enemy
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Yes
I know George, It was just an example. If you look at Brit Regts. So called, related regts have the same colours. And why Regts may have that colour.
As for the dishonour, I didn't say that. It is because one reason they have to pull their cannon. One of honour,and one of they left their gun carriage. I'm on the hunt in some of my books, of uniforms of dishonour. I have found one of a Prussian Regt 1800s. Running and they had to wear their helmet badge to the rear.
I know George, It was just an example. If you look at Brit Regts. So called, related regts have the same colours. And why Regts may have that colour.
As for the dishonour, I didn't say that. It is because one reason they have to pull their cannon. One of honour,and one of they left their gun carriage. I'm on the hunt in some of my books, of uniforms of dishonour. I have found one of a Prussian Regt 1800s. Running and they had to wear their helmet badge to the rear.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Recce 41
The Gunners never left a gun carriage at Leiliefontein. The gun carriage that was left was that of the Colt MG that Sgt Holland picked up in his arms and rode off with. Check your copy of 'Dragoon' or look at the front cover of 'Our Little Army in the Field' by Brian A Reid. We gave him permission to place on the jacket of his book the 'Saving the Guns at Leliefontein' print by Peter Archer depicting the battle where three VCs, a DSO and a DCM were won and two Boer Generals killed. The RCHA also have a similar print taken from the perspective of the guns at the top of the hill.
GW
The Gunners never left a gun carriage at Leiliefontein. The gun carriage that was left was that of the Colt MG that Sgt Holland picked up in his arms and rode off with. Check your copy of 'Dragoon' or look at the front cover of 'Our Little Army in the Field' by Brian A Reid. We gave him permission to place on the jacket of his book the 'Saving the Guns at Leliefontein' print by Peter Archer depicting the battle where three VCs, a DSO and a DCM were won and two Boer Generals killed. The RCHA also have a similar print taken from the perspective of the guns at the top of the hill.
GW
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And, further, I'll bet that there isn't one single documented "dishonour" that is actually part of the traditions of any unit in the Canadian Army. Personally, I think these alleged "dishonours" are just mess talk or misunderstanding endlessly repeated until they become truth.
In, fact...I will bet. I will send twenty bucks to the first person on this site who can provide documented proof to us all that any Regiment, Branch or Corps in the Canadian Army actually retains an item of dress, a custom, or a practice that is a recognized tradition, that is based on a dishonour ie: they have to do it because they FU'd in battle.
I'm waiting......
( Mr Bobbit: I'm sorry if we're not supposed to wager on this site-didn't mean to lower the tone..........)
Cheers.
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George
I know about the Colt. As I understand it. They Gunners got their GUNS away, but left the Carriage. The part between the gun and the Horses. If you look at old cannon. The gun could be pulled with carriage or direct for quick action. The carriage is where 2 other gunners sit, two next to the gun.
Some Gunner and I were talking about this in the mess once. In the end we were both right.
As for units in battle. You may not find any true Canadian Regts, that FU'd.
I know about the Colt. As I understand it. They Gunners got their GUNS away, but left the Carriage. The part between the gun and the Horses. If you look at old cannon. The gun could be pulled with carriage or direct for quick action. The carriage is where 2 other gunners sit, two next to the gun.
Some Gunner and I were talking about this in the mess once. In the end we were both right.
As for units in battle. You may not find any true Canadian Regts, that FU'd.
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