LAVS in combat

[NovaScotiaNewfie]

HI all this past week or last week while watching CBC Newsworld I thought I saw some LAVS firing their 25 mm guns, not sure if it was range exercise or if they were engaging enemies, any ideas? I guess it's not unlikely they were returning fire or what have you just think anytime the Army fires over there it would be on the news.

Does the Canadian Army use the exact same rounds as the US Army for the 25 mm gun? Just wondering besides the M1A1/A2 tank, A-10 Thunderbolt/Warthog and US Artillery if any other weapons systems in the US fire depleted Uranium rounds, ie) LAVIII/Stryker etc in the US Forces?

I doubt we use anything other a standard type of round. Tried a google search didn't find anything though..most talk was of the 105 MGS system...

 

[couchcommander]

Hey NovaScotiaNewfie,

SNC TEC (www.snctec.com) had been providing the Canadian Forces with 25 mm ammunition. I am not entirely certain whether or not they are providing all of the 25 mm ammunition that the CF has, or are continuing to do so, but as of the contract award date, they provided training,discarding sabot, and high explosive rounds (in a combination of tracer and non-tracer types).

Most likely, and I cannot say for certain, but any video the CBC has would most likely be of training (or else they'd be all over that it was their "scoop" IMO).

*edited for accuracy*

 

[George Wallace]

Sorry Couch Commander.  You just rest for a while.  The M242 in the CF use fires SABOT and FRANG (both have/are Tracer) today.

For more information on the LAVs and such visit the Armour Forums and the Weapons and Vehicles Forums.  This is all covered there.

 

[TCBF]

Couch Commander is right.  We fired HEI (High Explosive Incendiary) in Bosnia.  Lots of pretty colours on the nose, and a nice satisfying flash when you splash hard targets up close.

I believe the plan was to use them all up and stick with Fin and Frange.

Tom

 

[AmmoTech90]

Does the Canadian Army use the exact same rounds as the US Army for the 25 mm gun? Just wondering besides the M1A1/A2 tank, A-10 Thunderbolt/Warthog and US Artillery if any other weapons systems in the US fire depleted Uranium rounds, ie) LAVIII/Stryker etc in the US Forces?

First, artillery doesn't use DU.  Please check your facts before you commenting.
Second, the US Stryker family hasn't fielded a 25mm varient (yet).  They use the 25mm Bushmaster on LAV25 and Bradley.
Third, we use the same HEI design as the US, a small amount was made was SNC most of it was US manufacture.  The APDS and FAPDS (Fin and Frang) are (I believe) base on Oerlikon design, now owned by the Rhinemetal group, and produced under licence by SNC.  Fricking companies change hands so quick these days...

 

[couchcommander]

The APDS and FAPDS (Fin and Frang) are (I believe) base on Oerlikon design, now owned by the Rhinemetal group, and produced under licence by SNC.  Fricking companies change hands so quick these days...

Using parts from ATK nonetheless... I wonder how much more it cost to go this route than buy 25mm direct from ATK in the first place?

 

[1feral1]

WRT the M242 chain gun 25mm ammo. Australia uses US ammo, that being the APDS-T and the self distructing MP. I can't think of the nature nomenclature off hand. Google M242 chain gun, and you'll find all the ammo info you need.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[ERIK2RCR]

as far as i know the only round we use, made by the same maker as the american round, is he C-142/M792 HEI-T.

 

[George Wallace]

Back when I did my crse, I was told that we were doing away with HEI and sticking with Sabot and Frang.  (Due to their Characteristics and their effectiveness against a wide variety of Tgts.)  That being said, it would make sense that we are using HEI in Afghanistan, as most of the ammo would be coming from NATO and American stocks.  We will use what is available.

 

[ERIK2RCR]

Current doctraine is HEI-T on Dismounted troops beyond tracer burout(Coax), or area supression.

 

[geo]

BTW.... SNC TEC is being sold to General Dynamics.... so our ammo and their ammo will probably get synergized sometime in the future.... assuming the gov't OKs sale

 

[vonGarvin]

FROM THE C of E:
We use a variety of ammunition, all with the "C" predesignation, indicating made either in Canada, or elsewhere according to our specs
We use TPDS-T (Target Practice Discarding Sabot - Tracer).  This is used to mimic service armour piercing rounds, but has a much shorter range. 
We use TPT (Target Practice Tracer).  This is used to mimic service high explosive rounds, but has no explosive filler.
We use APFSDS-T (Armour Piercing, Fin Stabilised, Discarding Sabot - Tracer).  This is service ammuntion and has a very long range.  Due to the appearance of the projectile, it is nicknamed "dart".  It uses kinetic energy to penetrate armour.
We use FAPDS-T (Frangible, Armour Piercing, Discarding Sabot - Tracer).  This is service ammuntion, but has a much shorter range than the APFSDS-T, but longer than the TPDS-T.  Its range is shorter because this round is spin stablised.  As with the dart round, it too uses kinetic energy to penetrate armour, but due to its construction, it has significantly different "behind armour effects".
We use HEI-T (High Explosive, incendiary - Tracer).  As mentioned previously, it is used against targets which would normally be engaged with machine gun fire, but is used at ranges beyond the tracer burn out of machine gun rounds.  As the nomenclature suggests, it both blows up (HE) and causes fires (incendiary).  Due to its relatively small size, its not much of a boom when it hits, but the idea is that four or more LAVs are firing at the same target at a fairly high rate of fire.

Now, to supress rumours: HEI-T is NOT being phased out.  All types of ammo listed above are in use, though it is true that the HEI-T was at one point being considered to be ceased due to an apparent non-effectiveness of the ammo.  This train of thought has since perished.

Hauptmann out

 

[vonGarvin]

There, hope this suppresses any 25mm rumours

Now gimme back me friggin' mortars 

 

[Franko]

Now, to supress rumours: HEI-T is NOT being phased out.  All types of ammo listed above are in use, though it is true that the HEI-T was at one point being considered to be ceased due to an apparent non-effectiveness of the ammo.  This train of thought has since perished.

Got a source on that? I haven't seen nor heard of any troops using HEI in over 7 years.

The last time I had heard of it being used was in the case of it being blown off to get rid of the stock.

We did trials of it in Gagetown...all effects were negligible against a wide variety of targets...from soft skin to troops on open ground.

HEI is garbage against armour....you just piss off the crews   

FRANG was given the nod to bridge the gap....and that thinking has stood since. It can be used against all targets effectively....with excellet results.

All 25mm in every theater since have only used FRANG and APFDS-T.....I've never seen HEI uploaded.

So what has changed since?

Regards

 

[vonGarvin]

Got a source on that? I haven't seen nor heard of any troops using HEI in over 7 years.
The last time I had heard of it being used was in the case of it being blown off to get rid of the stock.
We did trials of it in Gagetown...all effects were negligible against a wide variety of targets...from soft skin to troops on open ground.
HEI is garbage against armour....you just piss off the crews   
FRANG was given the nod to bridge the gap....and that thinking has stood since. It can be used against all targets effectively....with excellet results.
All 25mm in every theater since have only used FRANG and APFDS-T.....I've never seen HEI uploaded.
So what has changed since?
Regards

As for a source, you're looking at it (well, you would be looking at it if I had a webcam on me and you were watching live  ;D)
I know of the trials in Gagetown, but there were others as well.  As for HEI-T vs Armour, well, I would highly recommend that you do NOT do that! 
Frangible ammo is an AP round, but more for very lightly armoured stuff, such as helicopters, trucks (with add-on armour, such as our uparmoured LUVWs) and stuff like that.  HEI-T is also good vs light vehicles.
As for what's in theatre, consider the role of the HEI-T: for firing on MG-like targets beyond MG range.  In other words, shooting sh*t that you would use an MG against if you were closer.  So, you have the coax, you have the FAPDS-T in one ammo bin, and APFSDS-T in the other, so you are pretty well good to go vs most targets.  And, in a pinch, Frange or dart are pretty good against stuff you'd use HEI-T or coax against.  Still, HEI-T can do stuff the others can't.  And due to its range and self-destruct mechanism, reduced "collateral damage" risk than with dart or frange.

 

[vonGarvin]

Also, to reply to another question in this thread: canada does NOT use DU in its 25mm ammo.

 

[KevinB]

HEI is an excellent tool in closer as well since it is not DS it is not such a threat to troops ahead of it.  It is an EXCELLENT URBAN round.

 

[vonGarvin]

HEI is an excellent tool in closer as well since it is not DS it is not such a threat to troops ahead of it.  It is an EXCELLENT URBAN round.

Very good point.  As with most ammo/weapons, sometimes the user finds better (or perhaps, "other good ways") to use them in roles not considered during the procurement phase.  Now, I don't know if this is a good example or not, but the F 104 Starfighter was developed to fly very high and very fast, shooting down Soviet Bombers over the Arctic. It ended up being used (at least as the CF 104) as a low level strike fighter/bomber.  I think the idea was to strap a few nukes to its bottom, strap in a pilot (probably against his will), point it at a mass of Soviet Armour somewhere near Fulda, fly at tree top level at mach 2+, drop da' bombs and get away long before the blast wave caught up to it.  Then we got rid of nukes (in Canada, anyway), but still used them in this role

 

[TCBF]

"And due to its range and self-destruct mechanism"

- ? Well, one disadvantage is that it may 'dirty' an area in that it is a dud-producing munition, but that may be insignifigant compared to the advantages of no-sabot petal spin-off, etc.

- I would go with Fin in the primary and HEI in the secondary if I could.  Fin is good for papa targets beyond TBO - better, in my opinion, than HEI.  But: HEI is a very good round for indication 'spotting' if you will, and against soft top 'technical' vehicles.

The disadvantage is NOT remembering to switch graticle scales when you switch ammo, and lighting up the trail a bit closer to the front of the call sign than you expected.

"used (at least as the CF 104) as .."
- The 104 had a far too small wing surface to manoever at altitude, but nothing could catch it on the deck.  It was perfect for low level nuclear strike and reconnaissance, that's what we bought it for in 1959, and that was Canada's role in Europe until 1971.  Funny we don't read about that much. 

"... When Mr. Cardin and I accepted responsibility for the Department of National Defence we sat down to consider what course we should follow. We soon came to the conclusion that there were three steps we should take. First, to _. bring the past up to the present. More specifically, I mean to arrange for the stockpiling of warheads for the weapons systems already acquired for our armed forces. Second, to review the major procurement programmes outstanding and, in particular, what effect those programmes might have on future defence policy. Third, to work out a long-range defence policy for Canada.

In order to obtain the warheads for our weapons systems it was necessary to sign an inter-governmental agreement between Canada and the U.S. to permit the stockpiling of warheads for use by Canadian forces in case of emergency. It was also necessary to sign technical agreements between forces relating to the storage, safety and other technical arrangements. Finally, it was necessary to complete the administrative arrangements, including the construction of special storage for the warheads and training of our forces.

As you know, three of the four weapons systems are now operational. The Bomarc missile squadrons--part of the continental anti-bomber defences--have been operational for a year. The CF-104 Starfighters in the nuclear strike role have been operational for some months. More recently, the Honest John surface-to-surface missile battery with our brigade in Germany passed its final test and the fourth system, the Genie air-to-air rocket for our air defence interceptors, will be available shortly. Canada then will be discharging, in full, those obligations undertaken for us in the name of Canada."

- Paul Hellyer, addressing the Empire Club, Feb 18, 1965

 

[vonGarvin]

"And due to its range and self-destruct mechanism"
- ? Well, one disadvantage is that it may 'dirty' an area in that it is a dud-producing munition, but that may be insignifigant compared to the advantages of no-sabot petal spin-off, etc.
- I would go with Fin in the primary and HEI in the secondary if I could.  Fin is good for papa targets beyond TBO - better, in my opinion, than HEI.  But: HEI is a very good round for indication 'spotting' if you will, and against soft top 'technical' vehicles.
The disadvantage is NOT remembering to switch graticle scales when you switch ammo, and lighting up the trail a bit closer to the front of the call sign than you expected.

True re: dud-producing in areas, but you're right re: trade off of those sabots flying off at close to 1400 m/sec in front of the LAV.  Heck, even meatloaf would leave a mark at that velocity!
Fin primary HEI secondary: hey, it all depends, right?  But there  are options.  HEI-T is "better" than fin in some cases, fin better in others, and frange better in still others: it all depends.  If, for example, "they" are in a rocky area, hiding behind said rocks, well, the little explosions going off at a rate of about 400/minute nearby (remember, about 4 or more boats firing), just might be what you need to suppress.  If "they" are in some crazy bunker thing that is metres thick, then go with fin, and if in a building of dubious construction, frange has excellent "effects" once it penetrates.
As for not switching scales, well, if the crew commander is properly supervising, then that won't happen.  Now THAT is what Individual Training is all about  ;D