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"Law Experts" Commenting on AFG Situation Today in Ottawa (23-04-07)

The Bread Guy

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Gee, lookit all the folks considering themselves "law experts" these days - if anyone drops by this one, feel free to share anything you find intriguing with us, eh?

Media Advisory - Law Experts Respond to Today's Afghanistan Developments
Link to media advisory

    OTTAWA, April 23 /CNW Telbec/ -

    Date:    Monday, April 23, 2007

    Time:    11:30 AM

    Location: Rm. 130S, Charles Lynch Room, Centre Block (Ottawa)

    Speakers:

    - Michael Byers, Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and
      International Law at the University of British Columbia
    - Amir Attaran, Canada Research Chair in Law, Population Health and
      Global Development Policy at the University of Ottawa
    - Steven Staples, Rideau Institute (moderator)

For further information: Steven Staples, Rideau Institute, (613)
565-4994, cel. (613) 290-2695, [email protected]

- edited to improve grammar a bit -


 
This I want to follow....Stephan Staples as a "Law Expert"....I assume he comes with a flashlight and two hands....
 
So anyone else think that this is the reason for the commentary?  http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070423/afghanistan_jails_070423/20070423?hub=TopStories

 
CTV likely picked it up from the big spread in the Globe & Mail this morning:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/59465/post-559086.html#msg559086

The piece says even though the Canadians have been identified by detainees as treating them very well, the big objection is that they're being handed over to AFG cops, who hand them over for tough questioning by (what appears to be) AFG int services.



 
And here we go, courtesy of Canadian Press - note the quoted - shared with the usual disclaimer....

Pressure mounts on Conservatives to change Afghan prisoner agreement
Murray Brewster, Canadian Press, 23 Apr 07
Article link

Allegations that Taliban prisoners captured by Canadians have been tortured in Afghan jails will be investigated, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Monday.

"The government is taking these allegations seriously," Harper told the Commons.

"Government officials will be following up these allegations with the government of Afghanistan to make sure they have the capacity to undertake their terms of the agreement."

In December 2005, the chief of defence staff, Gen. Rick Hillier, signed an agreement with the Afghan defence minister committing Canada to hand over captured Taliban prisoners to local authorities. But at least 30 detainees have told a national newspaper they were subjected to brutal treatment while in Afghanistan's notorious jails.

The deal has been criticized repeatedly by human rights groups because it doesn't give Canada the right to check on the condition of prisoners it has detained.

In an effort to address those concerns, the Canadian army signed a deal with the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission in late February that obliged the agency to notify Canada if its prisoners had been abused.

No such report has been received by Abdul Quadar Noorzai, the official in charge of the Kandahar branch of the rights commission.

"They will advise us of any abuses and we said we would provide any logistical support they need," Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor said in a reply to storm of Opposition questions.

But the damage may already be done, say two international law professors.

The door is open for Canadian troops to be prosecuted as war criminals if enemy prisoners have indeed been tortured in Afghan jails, said Michael Byers and Amir Attaran.

They say the only solution is for Harper's government to scrap the current agreement with the Afghan government and for Canada to build its own prisoner detention facility overseas.

"These are the most serious allegations, they cast Canada's reputation into a serious shadow," said Byers, a human rights law professor from the University of British Columbia.

"They raise issues of criminal prosecutions, both here and abroad."

The only solution is for Canada to construct its own detention facility in Afghanistan, where prisoners can be treated humanely, he said.

"There is no room for ambiguity. We are talking about one of the most fundamental rules of international law: the prohibition on torture and the prohibition on complicity in torture," said Byers.

Where "there is a serious risk of torture, we cannot transfer to the Afghan authorities. That's it. They have shown, if this report is correct, that they cannot be trusted to uphold fundamental rules."

Their call was echoed by Liberal leader Stephane Dion, who also repeated his demand for Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor's resignation.

"We need to find a solution; it cannot be the one we have now," said Dion, who at first suggested Taliban prisoners be brought to Canada, then reconsidered the idea as unrealistic.

During the Second World War, Canada brought over 40,000 German prisoners of war to this country. Attaran said between early 2002 and May 2006 the number of captured Taliban added up to roughly 40.

With all of the billions of dollars going into the Afghan mission, Byers said the federal government can afford the cost of caring for a " few dozen" detainees.

Both Byers and Attaran raised the possibility that Canadian troops could find themselves prosecuted in foreign countries - or even here at home - if the allegations of torture are proven true.

Attaran, a University of Ottawa law professor whose research raised the possibility that detainees might also have been abused in Canadian custody, said the latest revelations are an important human rights test for the Conservative government.

He says Harper's government now has the opportunity to prove "it's not soft on torture" by halting the transfer of prisoners immediately.

Harper accused Opposition parties of caring more about Taliban prisoners than Canadian troops when the issue came up in the Commons.

But Byers said the current agreement is letting soldiers down by not protecting them from the risk of international war crimes prosecution.

New Democrat defence critic Dawn Black says she can't understand why the Conservative government has not taken action on what is clearly a flawed agreement. Britain and the Netherlands have similar agreements, she notes, but they are allowed to check on the welfare of prisoners, where Canada is not.

Black says she has repeatedly asked the government to amend the transfer agreement, signed in December 2005 under the previous Liberal government.

In a report from Kandahar, the Globe cites 30 detainees say they were beaten, whipped, starved, frozen, choked and given electric shocks during interrogation.

Canadian troops regularly hold detainees for a few days of questioning at Kandahar Air Field, then give them to the National Directorate of Security, Afghanistan's feared intelligence police.

None of the abuse in these latest allegations was inflicted by Canadians, and most enemy captives - even those who clearly sympathized with the Taliban - praised the Canadian soldiers for their politeness, their gentle handling of captives and their comfortable detention facility.
 
CTV likely picked it up from the big spread in the Globe & Mail this morning

FYI, CTV and the Globe are more than just kissing cousins, they're a part of the same corporate parentage - CTVglobemedia.  This has "orchestrated" written all over it.
 
My wife has the rather useful idea that perhaps the French in Kabul might take charge of ISAF detainees.
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=614532007

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
My wife has the rather useful idea that perhaps the French in Kabul might take charge of ISAF detainees.
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=614532007

Mark
Ottawa

Kinda like a turnstile? I don't see the French any different than the Italilians...
 
Babbling Brooks said:
FYI, CTV and the Globe are more than just kissing cousins, they're a part of the same corporate parentage - CTVglobemedia.  This has "orchestrated" written all over it.

Welcome to the world of "media convergence" - the print side does the work, and the broadcast side shares the information more broadly.....  Great for doing more with less, but if the initial information is flawed, great for spreading misinformation more quickly.

So far, though, no moving Taliban types here....

Harper rejects transfer of Afghan prisoners to Canada
Juliet O’Neill, CanWest News Service, 23 Apr 07
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=0d778b70-a4fd-49fa-949d-303603969e36&k=639

Prime Minister Stephen Harper declared Monday that Canadian troops would not transfer Taliban prisoners to Canada as suggested by Liberal Leader Stephane Dion as an alternative to torture in Afghanistan.

Dion backpedalled within minutes of floating the idea - “We may bring them in Canada” - by saying he guessed it was “not realistic” and he did not know where the prisoners could be held in Canada.

But Harper seized on the suggestion repeatedly during question period as all three opposition parties demanded an immediate halt to prisoner transfers from the Canadian military to Afghan intelligence officers in the wake of a published report of torture.

Harper promised the “serious allegations” would be examined by officials and followed up with Afghan authorities, “but what we will not do is bring the Taliban prisoners to Canada.”

The prime minister also rejected calls by opposition MPs for the resignation of Defence Minister Gordon O’Connor on grounds he had failed to put mechanisms in place to prevent prisoner abuse after previous appeals from politicians and human rights advocates concerned by Canadian treatment of prisoners and complicity in abuse by Afghan authorities.

O’Connor characterized the fresh detailed accounts in the media as “rumours” and repeatedly defended a recent government agreement with the independent human rights commission of Afghanistan to report abuses to Canada. That agreement was signed after O’Connor mistakenly said the Red Cross was providing oversight on prisoner treatment ....

 
Everybody is conveniently forgetting who was interviewed.....Taliban prisoners who know very well the controversy within the NATO countries about deployments and the angst the MSM display. Information is a weapon.

Just on the off chance I am totally out lunch, we should check our prisons to see how many innocent people are being held against their will......
 
I think the government's response is hardly adequate and that the allegations are damning given public attitudes (Arar) in Canada.  It seems clear that the Afghan human rights body is not in any way up to the job.  Is there any information on how the Dutch agreement has worked out in practice?

I fear that--given our media's attitude--this could become our equivalent in the public mind to Abu Ghraib.  There also would appear to be no good solution to the issue short of ISAF's setting up its own prison facilities which will never happen for any number of reasons.

Mark
Ottawa
 
My God, I'm still laughing my nether regions off.....I was driving home tonight and had the radio on scan when I heard someone say "...and I being an international expert on these matters"  and the only thought I had was whomever said that is obviously a clown who knows $%*& when he must self-promote and/or inform everyone that he is an expert on the subject, ...and of course it was a clown named By-something whom then carried on with his diatribe.

The only thing missing in this cheesy late night infomercial was his pal S.S. stating that he liked the Hair Club For Men so much he bought......
 
MarkOttawa said:
I fear that--given our media's attitude--this could become our equivalent in the public mind to Abu Ghraib.

Sadly, betcha a loonie this will be the next message development, starting with the columnists and/or NDP.

 
Once again, the out of touch, out of ideas and out to lunch opposition parties are throwing out stupidity hoping something will stick. The Canadian voting public (at least the ones with a still partially functioning brain) are getting very tired of this sort of thing, and will 'reward' said parties for their lack of foresight, credibility and primary school clique antics come the next election.
 
everybody is conveniently forgetting who was interviewed.....Taliban prisoners who know very well the controversy within the NATO countries about deployments and the angst the MSM display. Information is a weapon.

I don't think its unrealistic to suggest that the treatment of these Taliban fighters is probably not up to Red Cross standards. We're talking about Afghanistan here. If this was truly Taliban propaganda, Canadian soldiers would have been implicated directly, but instead, according to the articles, they have been given glowing reviews by the prisoners themselves. 

I think the government's response is hardly adequate and that the allegations are damning given public attitudes (Arar) in Canada.  It seems clear that the Afghan human rights body is not in any way up to the job.

I totally agree. The Canadian government and Gen. Hillier should have ensured that detainees would be treated well before handing any over to the Afghan government, and have access to these prisoners, especially knowing that the media and the opposition parties in Canada will eat this stuff up. This lack of foresight is going to cost in the long run.
 
So I went along and had a wee listen to these "law experts" and a few things came up as being the main focus of their agenda. 

They are calling for Canada to provide the detention centres as a means to "watch dog" over the apparent human rights violations.  Read, hidden agenda, they all want to secure a favourable government contract to be the consulting body on such a venture. 

They want Gen Hillier, made accountable for entering into an agreement with the Afghan government and punished.  Read, hidden agenda, these "law experts" have over the course of the mission been vying for consultant positions within DND and DFAIT. They have been spectacularly turned down or at best, politely ignored and they want Hillier made their scapegoat for daring to ignore their "advice". 

They thought they had an International body at ready to side with them on the issue of human rights violations with AI, and too bad, so sad, AI has deemed the TB to be war criminals.  Read, hidden agenda, back pedal to making the issue of detainees an uniquely Canadian problem so they don't have to respond to the issue of trying to advocate on behalf of internationally recognized war criminals.  Read further into hidden agenda, "hire us to consult in the processes so we can advise on how to deem them war criminals". 

To be honest, I am extremely disappointed that the MSM has fallen prey to being used as a mechanism for these "law experts" to nationally advertise themselves for a make work project .  They are looking for the golden research calf that comes with a large SSHRC grant and unfettered research criteria.  They want a book deal and maybe even film rights out of this... yup can see it now...a Micheal Moore type of production with poor beleaguered Attaran, who only wants to save one poor miserable SOB in Afghanistan from being tortured so they can return to the mountains and plan their suicide run, surrounded by CF PAFFOs, the CDS and the MinDef all out to get him.  The proverbial David and Goliath, Rideau Canal Beaver tails at high noon.

I'm even more disappointed in the attempts to grab the limelight by these "law experts" and in doing so, attempting to secure themselves a nice little research grant...I won't feel sorry for them if in the end, it is found that they have been fooled and used by the TB as a tool for their propaganda.  I am waiting patiently to see the corroborating evidence from all of these accusations.   
 
I've already written a few letters to the Post about Attaran (as well as to the LSUC, the Cdn Research Council and U of O).  All I felt yesterday was that I was at  some job fair and these guys were trying to sell themselves (just like we did when we were all at law school)
 
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