Leave - Recall and Other Issues [MERGED]

[Journeyman]

Except the troops, and apparently people on here, don't always realize that you need both.

Whereas I suspect that most people on here understand and accept the need for both..... and their place.  A battalion Adjutant is a critical advisor who, if competent, is respected notwithstanding not being in a leadership position.


Regrettably, many of us see too many of the risk-averse chair-warmers running the show

.....and growing HQ positions for more of their ilk

.....and (while being repetitive) distracting the masses from the growing cluster-f with bread and circuses badge and uniform changes.

 

[Lumber]

Whereas I suspect that most people on here understand and accept the need for both..... and their place.  A battalion Adjutant is a critical advisor who, if competent, is respected notwithstanding not being in a leadership position.


Regrettably, many of us see too many of the risk-averse chair-warmers running the show

.....and growing HQ positions for more of their ilk

.....and (while being repetitive) distracting the masses from the growing cluster-f with bread and circuses badge and uniform changes.

There's risk averse and then there's reckless. Commanding Officers do not have carte blanche to run their units as they see fit, with complete disregard for rules and regulations. Why do you think they limit Short Days to 2 per month? Do I think it's bad to dish out a few extra days if the situation warrants it? No. Do I think it's wrong to have a blanket policy of giving two weeks of unaccountable leave? Yes.

 

[ballz]

Except the troops, and apparently people on here, don't always realize that you need both. I've met fellow officers who were great, inspiring "leaders", but who couldn't manage time, money or effort.

I would like to see the argument that supports the assertion that this SOP is not managing time, money, or effort. It is, in my opinion, doing a much better job of managing those three things for everyone involved.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Except the troops, and apparently people on here, don't always realize that you need both. I've met fellow officers who were great, inspiring "leaders", but who couldn't manage time, money or effort.

Good leaders hire great managers

 

[CountDC]

and on the other side of the coin.........

A few months ago I had a chance to visit the Toronto MIR for sick parade and was surprised to find they have a policy that if you don't go there within the first 48 hours it is deemed a non-emergent(??) and you have to book an appointment if you want to see someone.  next appointment was 2 weeks later so didn't happen. 

The problem I see here is the CO has the authority per the leave manual to authorize 2 days sick leave but if he does that and it is something more severe you have to make an appointment.  The MIR policy basically takes away the CO's ability to grant the 2 days sick leave.  I was also told in the past that health services liked the 2 days as it kept a lot of contagious people home instead of out spreading things around.

Of course you could go in and lie about how long you have been sick but then you may not get the proper treatment.  Only a day, ok we will try this for 3 days and see what happens.

 

[Lumber]

and on the other side of the coin.........

A few months ago I had a chance to visit the Toronto MIR for sick parade and was surprised to find they have a policy that if you don't go there within the first 48 hours it is deemed a non-emergent(??) and you have to book an appointment if you want to see someone.  next appointment was 2 weeks later so didn't happen. 

The problem I see here is the CO has the authority per the leave manual to authorize 2 days sick leave but if he does that and it is something more severe you have to make an appointment.  The MIR policy basically takes away the CO's ability to grant the 2 days sick leave.  I was also told in the past that health services liked the 2 days as it kept a lot of contagious people home instead of out spreading things around.

Of course you could go in and lie about how long you have been sick but then you may not get the proper treatment.  Only a day, ok we will try this for 3 days and see what happens.

You're right this makes no sense. I have the exact opposite policy at my work. If you're sick, I send you home for up to 2 days. If at the end of day 2 you think you need to be away from work for longer, then I arrange transportation to the MIR, because only they can grant further sick leave.

 

[SupersonicMax]

There's risk averse and then there's reckless. Commanding Officers do not have carte blanche to run their units as they see fit, with complete disregard for rules and regulations. Why do you think they limit Short Days to 2 per month? Do I think it's bad to dish out a few extra days if the situation warrants it? No. Do I think it's wrong to have a blanket policy of giving two weeks of unaccountable leave? Yes.

I am just curious to know what you consider unacceptable risk and what its impacts would be for a CO to authorize leave perhaps outside the scope of the leave manual or re-defining a member's workplace?

 

[Lumber]

I am just curious to know what you consider unacceptable risk and what its impacts would be for a CO to authorize leave perhaps outside the scope of the leave manual or re-defining a member's workplace?

I can't draw the line for you; I only know that, IMO, the 2-week parental leave policy crosses it. Potential impacts? I'm really REALLY bad at articulating the nuances of organizational leadership styles, but I'll do my best: ...it would feel wrong? See, I told you I'm bad at articulating...

Other potential impacts:
It could negatively impact the credibility of rules and regulations;
It could negatively impact unit accountability;
And maybe someone else can speak to the implications of injury while on unaccounted leave;
Something;
Something;
Just feels wrong. Ya feel?

 

[PuckChaser]

It could negatively impact the credibility of rules and regulations;

I don't think I've ever heard of a young troop ripping apart the Leave Policy after getting some compassionate leave due to the birth of their child and say "what else can I get away with". The CO grants some compassionate. Young troop tries to take advantage and do something else. CO says no. Chaos doesn't ensue. The ultimate authority in the unit is the CO. Does this young troop now file a redress of grievance with their sole justification as "The CO gave me compassionate once contrary to the leave policy, so I should get to do this"? Absolutely not.

 

[SupersonicMax]

It could negatively impact the credibility of rules and regulations;

How so?

It could negatively impact unit accountability;

Really?  How so?

And maybe someone else can speak to the implications of injury while on unaccounted leave;

We are in Canada.  Free healthcare is guaranteed under the Canada Health Act, 1984.

Just feels wrong. Ya feel?

Ever asked yourself why it feels wrong? 

These are pretty weak arguments.  I believe any risk associated with granting time off to personnel would be heavily mitigated by how we select our COs.  In the end, the COs more than likely have the interest of both the CF and the members at heart and some deviations from policies allows for a more effective fighting force. We trust them with literrally life and death decisions but cannot trust them with granting days off to their pers??

To me, this is leadership vs management (or bean counting).

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Looking at my  Charter of Rights and Freedom now ...  ...  ...  No! Don't see it anywhere! Sorry! No free healthcare guaranteed anywhere in it. But you can get your Federal services in French anywhere in Canada.  [Xp

 

[SupersonicMax]

Looking at my  Charter of Rights and Freedom now ...  ...  ...  No! Don't see it anywhere! Sorry! No free healthcare guaranteed anywhere in it. But you can get your Federal services in French anywhere in Canada.  [Xp

Canada Health act.  Post edited.

 

[Lumber]

These are pretty weak arguments.  I believe any risk associated with granting time off to personnel would be heavily mitigated by how we select our COs.  In the end, the COs more than likely have the interest of both the CF and the members at heart and some deviations from policies allows for a more effective fighting force. To me, this is leadership vs management (or bean counting).

You know what? You've really changed my mind.

We have an interesting training year at naval reserve divisions, where the summer is really dead and the rest of the year is really busy, so I'm going to write a memo recommending a few changes:

1. I'm going to recommend that everyone get an additional week of leave in the summer, to help recharge and refresh;
2. I'm going to recommend that everyone with children get an extra week of leave for March break;
3. Everyone who doesn't have kids can take an extra 5 days off whenever they please, just to be fair;
4. From May to October, dress will be PT gear, 24/7;
5. The rest of the year, running shoes will be acceptable alternates to sea boots;
6. During the summer, work won't start until 0900 and will end at 1500;
7. All year round, lunch will be 2 hrs long, so that we can play ball hockey, and still have time to eat;
8. You can call-in sick for up to 2 weeks without being forced to go to the MIR.


Man, things are going to be so awesome around here thanks to my CO's prerogative!

 

[SupersonicMax]

You know what? You've really changed my mind.

We have an interesting training year at naval reserve divisions, where the summer is really dead and the rest of the year is really busy, so I'm going to write a memo recommending a few changes:

1. I'm going to recommend that everyone get an additional week of leave in the summer, to help recharge and refresh;
2. I'm going to recommend that everyone with children get an extra week of leave for March break;
3. Everyone who doesn't have kids can take an extra 5 days off whenever they please, just to be fair;
4. From May to October, dress will be PT gear, 24/7;
5. The rest of the year, running shoes will be acceptable alternates to sea boots;
6. During the summer, work won't start until 0900 and will end at 1500;
7. All year round, lunch will be 2 hrs long, so that we can play ball hockey, and still have time to eat;
8. You can call-in sick for up to 2 weeks without being forced to go to the MIR.


Man, things are going to be so awesome around here thanks to my CO's prerogative!

Let's say all you said happenned without any repercussion on work quantity and quality and readiness, why should anybody care?

I do things that would really piss you off.  I tell people working for me that as long as their work is complete and well done, they can be at home, but reacheable.  It means some days, they work a lot less than 8 hours a day and even some days they don't come into work (I ask them to tell me ahead of time if they won't show up at all).  Their part of the bargain is to do their job well and not to moan and whine when I ask them to work weekends or long hours if we need them to.  Overall, it works in their favor (time wise) but the organization benefits from increased efficiency and increased morale.

 

[PMedMoe]

Rewarding people for work is one thing, giving people compassionate leave for the birth of a child is quite another.  It's not like it was a surprise; they've had almost nine months to plan for it.  If the mother and/or child has medical issues, fine....but "Oh hey, you successfully added to the population, have some buckshee days off"? No....just, no.

 

[mariomike]

Surprised there are so many differences of opinion.

I worked for a non-military employer. It was pretty simple, "Leave for Birth of Child: An employee shall be granted four (4) days off with pay for the birth of his child."

There was no need for discussion.

 

[ballz]

You know what? You've really changed my mind.

We have an interesting training year at naval reserve divisions, where the summer is really dead and the rest of the year is really busy, so I'm going to write a memo recommending a few changes:

1. I'm going to recommend that everyone get an additional week of leave in the summer, to help recharge and refresh;
2. I'm going to recommend that everyone with children get an extra week of leave for March break;
3. Everyone who doesn't have kids can take an extra 5 days off whenever they please, just to be fair;
4. From May to October, dress will be PT gear, 24/7;
5. The rest of the year, running shoes will be acceptable alternates to sea boots;
6. During the summer, work won't start until 0900 and will end at 1500;
7. All year round, lunch will be 2 hrs long, so that we can play ball hockey, and still have time to eat;
8. You can call-in sick for up to 2 weeks without being forced to go to the MIR.


Man, things are going to be so awesome around here thanks to my CO's prerogative!

We did some of those things, maybe not to the extent you are mentioning, and it worked, it worked well, and when the next level up came to visit, we didn't hide it because there was nothing to hide.

We spend a lot more time in PT kit if there is less work to be done. If you're doing PT 2x a day, and have no reason to change into combats (aka appointments, dirty work, meetings, etc) from 1000 (start of work) until your next session (1200 for most that do two-a-days), why the hell would you change into combats?

We might do a longer run or PT session in the morning than the standard one hour.

We do take longer lunches so that we can play sports and eat (our grappling club starts at 11:30 each day... 45-60 minutes to grapple, 30-45 minutes to eat). God forbid we take an extra half hour "off" so that we can do an extra 45-60 minutes of martial arts each day at an infantry unit!

We do get some days after missing weekends and stat holidays because we are in the field that probably don't fit within the leave manual. You know what that's called? Managing pers tempo.

And not only does all of this make perfectly good sense, it is in line with the way smart companies in the private sector are "managing" their personnel. Flexible work hours, able to use OT for extra days off, I know a ton of accounting firms relax the office hours during "off-season" and just make sure that they've always got someone in the office at all times during normal hours, but not all employees are expected to be there all the time if they've got nothing to do.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

You know what? You've really changed my mind.

We have an interesting training year at naval reserve divisions, where the summer is really dead and the rest of the year is really busy, so I'm going to write a memo recommending a few changes:

1. I'm going to recommend that everyone get an additional week of leave in the summer, to help recharge and refresh;
2. I'm going to recommend that everyone with children get an extra week of leave for March break;
3. Everyone who doesn't have kids can take an extra 5 days off whenever they please, just to be fair;
4. From May to October, dress will be PT gear, 24/7;
5. The rest of the year, running shoes will be acceptable alternates to sea boots;
6. During the summer, work won't start until 0900 and will end at 1500;
7. All year round, lunch will be 2 hrs long, so that we can play ball hockey, and still have time to eat;
8. You can call-in sick for up to 2 weeks without being forced to go to the MIR.


Man, things are going to be so awesome around here thanks to my CO's prerogative!

Wait, the Navy doesn't do that already?

 

[armyvern]

I don't think I've ever heard of a young troop ripping apart the Leave Policy after getting some compassionate leave due to the birth of their child and say "what else can I get away with". The CO grants some compassionate. Young troop tries to take advantage and do something else. CO says no. Chaos doesn't ensue. The ultimate authority in the unit is the CO. Does this young troop now file a redress of grievance with their sole justification as "The CO gave me compassionate once contrary to the leave policy, so I should get to do this"? Absolutely not.

Here you go:

I am a female member of the CAF ...

Why, when I have a kid are you making me take MATA / PATA and I'm not getting paid my full salary - I have to collect pogie, I have to do shit tonnes of paperwork too ...


Yet you allow a man, my husband in the military, to take compassionate leave instead of PATA and keep getting fully paid for the EXACT same kid? ...


See how that works?

When are we female service members who are actually HAVING/BIRTHING the kids going to start getting compassionate leave like the men do when kids are born so that we can keep getting fully paid too and "avoid all the paperwork and the collection of only a partial salary??"

MATA and PATA exist for a reason.  Compassionate falls into the complications during childbirth, stillborn etc?  NOW, there's compassionate circumstances.

 

[PuckChaser]

At no point did I ever suggest a women not be allowed to take compassionate leave instead of MATA. I only used PATA as an example because it's what I had direct experience with. There's no reason why a woman shouldn't be able to take 2 weeks compassionate and come back to work if they so choose.