Leave

[Gunplumber]

Is there any regulation in the CAF where it says you have to plan your leave (with dates) for the whole year? My CoC is asking me for this.

 

[MJP]

Is there any regulation in the CAF where it says you have to plan your leave (with dates) for the whole year? My CoC is asking me for this.

No regulation to that effect. It is fairly common to have folks do up some sort of leave plan so a CoC can plan for the year. Usually it is just a rough guide post for macro planning purposes

 

[Furniture]

There is no regulation that says you have to do it, but there is also no regulation preventing a CoC from ordering you to do it. Your best bet is to talk to your CoC and ask if they need exact dates, or if they need rough dates. Also, ask if there will be flexibility based on staffing needs, if they want exact dates.

I personally find the idea of planning dates for my leave a year in advance ridiculous, but there are people who want their year planned out in detail. Could just be that the boss is a detailed planner, and doesn't understand that not everybody else works that way in their personal life.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There is no regulation that says you have to do it, but there is also no regulation preventing a CoC from ordering you to do it. Your best bet is to talk to your CoC and ask if they need exact dates, or if they need rough dates. Also, ask if there will be flexibility based on staffing needs, if they want exact dates.

I personally find the idea of planning dates for my leave a year in advance ridiculous, but there are people who want their year planned out in detail. Could just be that the boss is a detailed planner, and doesn't understand that not everybody else works that way in their personal life.

Having been the boss, it is also irritating to get to mid January and find people with 20 (plus) days of leave remaining….and no plan, whatsoever.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

No regulation, however, this is a professional courtesy for your organization.

When I am doing up CFTPOs, seeing that Bloggins is planning to take 3 weeks off at that time helps me look at other names first. If SHTF and I have to inform Bloggins his leave will be denied because of operational need, gives us both suitable amounts of time to figure out alternatives so everyone walks away happy.

The alternative is everyone getting pissed off because everyone was in the dark about what staff levels would be at any particular time.

Do I necessarily give a shit about a year out? Not particularly. But having to chase down people 2 weeks before Christmas Leave makes me want to assign duties pretty liberally.

Talk with your CoC and see if they're OK with just a general plan, vice exact dates. Also know that most of these requests are coming from higher up, especially as we are expanding our mission presence across the globe and we're trying to knit together troops to beef up formations prior to deployments. Knowing who's where and when helps greatly in drafting a TO&E.

 

[Furniture]

Having been the boss, it is also irritating to get to mid January and find people with 20 (plus) days of leave remaining….and no plan, whatsoever.

After I wrote what I did, I also remembered the times I had someone with far too much leave after Christmas... The worst offenders I have found are the senior people who end up taking most of March off, because they didn't have a plan at all.

My preferred way to manage leave is have seasonal leave goals, so that people can plan to burn for example 10 days in the summer, 5 in the fall, and use the remaining 5 or ten for Christmas/March Break.

When I was running an office I didn't require people to solidify exact dates until a couple of months out from their planned rough dates. It was a 24/7 shiftwork office, so I needed dates early enough to publish the schedule.

 

[Quirky]

Having been the boss, it is also irritating to get to mid January and find people with 20 (plus) days of leave remaining….and no plan, whatsoever.

If we didn't have all these bullshit special and short days during christmas break, we wouldn't run into issues with people having 10+ days of annual left into the new year. I shouldn't have to police peoples leave and force them to take time off. That's insanity. You either use them, or lose them. Period. When people can't take 20+ days off during the year (operations aside), that tells me we get too much leave.

 

[Furniture]

If we didn't have all these bullshit special and short days during christmas break, we wouldn't run into issues with people having 10+ days of annual left into the new year. I shouldn't have to police peoples leave and force them to take time off. That's insanity. You either use them, or lose them. Period. When people can't take 20+ days off during the year (operations aside), that tells me we get too much leave.

Wow...

 

[rmc_wannabe]

If we didn't have all these bullshit special and short days during christmas break, we wouldn't run into issues with people having 10+ days of annual left into the new year. I shouldn't have to police peoples leave and force them to take time off. That's insanity. You either use them, or lose them. Period. When people can't take 20+ days off during the year (operations aside), that tells me we get too much leave.

Or..... you can properly manage personnel so that tasks are fulfilled and members also can take their full leave entitlement.

Failing that, allow members to cash out leave (like was done for FY22/23) or accumulate it for operational reasons (which checks CFLPM folks are allowed to do and have been for decades).

 

[brihard]

If we didn't have all these bullshit special and short days during christmas break, we wouldn't run into issues with people having 10+ days of annual left into the new year. I shouldn't have to police peoples leave and force them to take time off. That's insanity. You either use them, or lose them. Period. When people can't take 20+ days off during the year (operations aside), that tells me we get too much leave.

As an NCO and supervisor that’s literally among the core basics of your job. It’s not like you don’t know in April that there will be a bunch of bonus leaves in December and that your troops need to burn leave by end March.

Try looking any of us in the eye and telling us that troops don’t feel pressured to keep working and not book time off due to workload. For years the system has accepted and perpetuated a norm of a late fiscal leave burn. Correcting that is a leadership function from section all the way up to unit level.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

And to the original question, I can't answer what the military rules are, but most work places that don't have a shutdown period will make employees pick what they want for vacation early in the year. Just saying it wouldn't be an outrageous thing specific to the CAF if they did.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Try looking any of us in the eye and telling us that troops don’t feel pressured to keep working and not book time off due to workload. For years the system has accepted and perpetuated a norm of a late fiscal leave burn. Correcting that is a leadership function from section all the way up to unit level.

100%
I had my summer leave fucked with 3 years in a row. My Family went on our planned and booked vacation 2 our of 3 of those times without me.
Endstate for people like me is to get ordered on leave while my wife is working and kids are in school. I've seen it up to the rank of major where they burn annual leave by taking Fridays off, but are still pressured to go to work anyways.

Anyone who tries to put themselves and their family first is treated like a pariah.

 

[dimsum]

If we didn't have all these bullshit special and short days during christmas break, we wouldn't run into issues with people having 10+ days of annual left into the new year. I shouldn't have to police peoples leave and force them to take time off. That's insanity. You either use them, or lose them. Period. When people can't take 20+ days off during the year (operations aside), that tells me we get too much leave.

I had to read this a few times to really get through my head what you're suggesting.

You want people to have less leave?

After your posts about not having enough pay, benefits, whatever to keep the people in, and you want to decrease one of the few benefits we have?

Please tell me that you weren't seriously thinking this.

Also, Short leave is up to 2 per month, CO's concurrence. The fact that the "default" is that folks only use 4 of those possible 24 days is a failing of our work culture.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

100%
I had my summer leave fucked with 3 years in a row. My Family went on our planned and booked vacation 2 our of 3 of those times without me.

THAT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. Unless the ball is very close to being dropped.....

 

[mariomike]

, but most work places that don't have a shutdown period will make employees pick what they want for vacation early in the year.

You can pick Prime Time ( summer ) vacation. Getting it will depend where you rank on the seniority list.

 

[Quirky]

Or..... you can properly manage personnel so that tasks are fulfilled and members also can take their full leave entitlement.

Try looking any of us in the eye and telling us that troops don’t feel pressured to keep working and not book time off due to workload.

I'm not a mind reader. If people don't take leave based on perceived pressure, that's on them. I've never rejected a leave pass in MM, however I have suggested people adjust leave based on manning and qualification levels. If you are around the unit the entire year with no deployments, there is ZERO excuse not to request time off.

You want people to have less leave?

I want people to manage their leave so over half the unit isn't gone in the last two weeks of March. Only using 3-4 days of annual for two weeks off during Christmas is insanity and doesn't happen anywhere else in the civilian world. Don't even get me started with the "burning leave" phrase. People sound like spoiled, entitled little shits when they say that. You poor fella needs to be forced on leave, give me a break. People on civy street would kill for the amount of leave we get and some people have the audacity to complain.

 

[Furniture]

I'm not a mind reader. If people don't take leave based on perceived pressure, that's on them. I've never rejected a leave pass in MM, however I have suggested people adjust leave based on manning and qualification levels. If you are around the unit the entire year with no deployments, there is ZERO excuse not to request time off.

Are your behaviours encouraging that mentality among your troops, even if you're not saying it? Your attitude in the below paragraph leads me to think that it's likely part of the situation.

I want people to manage their leave so over half the unit isn't gone in the last two weeks of March. Only using 3-4 days of annual for two weeks off during Christmas is insanity and doesn't happen anywhere else in the civilian world. Don't even get me started with the "burning leave" phrase. People sound like spoiled, entitled little shits when they say that. You poor fella needs to be forced on leave, give me a break. People on civy street would kill for the amount of leave we get and some people have the audacity to complain.

I'm glad I don't work for you, and based on that attitude, you should be glad you don't work for me.

 

[Quirky]

Are your behaviours encouraging that mentality among your troops, even if you're not saying it? Your attitude in the below paragraph leads me to think that it's likely part of the situation.

I'm glad I don't work for you, and based on that attitude, you should be glad you don't work for me.

Cut the specials and shorts and we will have no issues with people "burning leave" at the end of the year, if that's the issue.

Oh please give it a rest. The CAF has too many entitled little children who can't manage anything in their lives then complain the "military screwed me". These are the people who wouldn't survive in the real world anyway, and usually don't.

 

[Lumber]

I want people to manage their leave so over half the unit isn't gone in the last two weeks of March.

Managing your people is literally the job of Officers and NCOs! You just want to leave it up to the troops and hope for the best? Wave your hands "oh well" and then argue with command that they should lose their leave for your shitting HR practices?

If we did an audit and I found out a bunch of NCMs from one of my sections had a bunch of leave unused after Christmas, I wouldn't so much be disappointed in those members, but I would be having a stern chat with their PO1 and Lt(N) about proper personnel management, especially considering I would have already instituted a system and laid out expectations at the beginning of the year.

 

[OldSolduer]

Oh please give it a rest. The CAF has too many entitled little children who can't manage anything in their lives then complain the "military screwed me". These are the people who wouldn't survive in the real world anyway, and usually don't.

I am long retired however the Regulations and Orders state that your troops are entitled to leave. Generalizing that "These people wouldn't survive in the real world " is insulting and demeaning.

AND you have included yourself in that quote whether you know it or not. I suspect you don't.