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[Jarnhamar]

It depends on your job. My work starts at 7am, some parts of where I work start as early as 5am. We also work shift work which is something most of the CAF doesn’t do particularly often. We do get called in occasionally if there is a big enough job, and it can potentially be late at night.

That's fair. Is there a penalty if you get called the night before and told to show up 2 hours early and you say no you can't?
I don't know much about unions or collective bargaining but I know there's hell to pay when DND civilian employers are kept past 1600hrs.
If you're unionized I can't imagine there is a credible threat you'll be fired for refusing to be called in early.

Your cigarette butts one is a odd one to pick, I get told to clean up after others which includes garbage all the time. Civilian employers can also force multiple jobs on you, especially higher ranked ones without the pay. If you say no you can potentially be fired.

I'm open to being wrong in my assumption.

Again from my small knowledge of civilian jobs I find it hard to imagine workers being told to go clean up garbage or cigarette butts or risk some kind of punishment.
Likewise for having additional jobs dumped on you or working at the next pay incentive without being compensated. I can see an AS-1 covering off for an AS-4 for a short period of time. 6 months or a year? Not so much.

Maybe the difference between unionized and non-unionized is being lost on me.

 

[brihard]

That's fair. Is there a penalty if you get called the night before and told to show up 2 hours early and you say no you can't?
I don't know much about unions or collective bargaining but I know there's hell to pay when DND civilian employers are kept past 1600hrs.
If you're unionized I can't imagine there is a credible threat you'll be fired for refusing to be called in early.


I'm open to being wrong in my assumption.

Again from my small knowledge of civilian jobs I find it hard to imagine workers being told to go clean up garbage or cigarette butts or risk some kind of punishment.
Likewise for having additional jobs dumped on you or working at the next pay incentive without being compensated. I can see an AS-1 covering off for an AS-4 for a short period of time. 6 months or a year? Not so much.

Maybe the difference between unionized and non-unionized is being lost on me.

I can only speak for my organization, but both uniformed and civilian employees who act in a higher rank’s position get paid that rank’s pay, and I know that uniformed employees who get promoted substantively to a rank they’ve been acting in will get backdated for seniority and pay increments, as well as ‘time in rank’ eligibility for subsequent promotions. Working more than scheduled hours = paid overtime, including getting called in early or held working late.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Just curious. Do you have a lot of first hand experience with working life outside the CAF? Upon which you can base your comparisons?

Because that would add a lot of weight to your contention...

 

[Zoomie]

I don't know how fair that comparison is though. Think of the bigger picture.

Civilian workplaces don't:
-call you at 5am and tell you to be at work for 6. Got kids? Drop em off at a neighbor's.
-order you to stay late after work, use your emergency family care plan to get your kids.
-tell you you're being sent across the country for 3 months with a weeks notice.
-cancel your vacation last minute and jerk you around if you try and get compensated for canceled airfare or hotels.
-have the ability to put you in jail if you don't show up for work.
-force multiple jobs on you and make you work at a higher-ranked position without compensation.

I also don't think your civilian work has ever ordered you to pick up cigarette butts, garbage, or branches around your building.

No other workplace in Canada has the same control over its employees that the CAF does. Vacation days are on a different level for CAF members IMO.

Where does this still happen? We wonder why we have a retention problem - it’s the leadership who perpetuate these examples that are slowly killing our numbers.

I wouldn’t answer the phone at 5am for an early show, or the night before (call display FTW)!
Military justice doesn‘t allow for people to just be dropped in cells anymore.
Cleanping up butts? Not without PPE and the supervisor better be doing it too.
Work is done at 1530 - I’m out the door, send a FN outlining your issue with me leaving at the end of my day.

Simce we‘er talking about leave - the 4 short at Christmas is entirely based upon your CO‘s concurrence - if you don’t have a leave plan until 31 March - you use annual at Christmas. It’s baked into the direction. Every Christmas leave direction I’ve had has included direction from higher to have all annual leave planned out until end FY IOT get those short days. You can shift those days around after the fact, just cancel and rebook. I’m taking two weeks off starting on 24 March - because my kids have March break at that time. The genius that designed PACE (Col B and friends) have PARs being done when over half the CAF is on leave.

 

[Lumber]

Where does this still happen?

Lots of places. You're salaried employees, not wage employees. The expectation is to get jobs DONE, not put is x number of hours.

I wouldn’t answer the phone at 5am for an early show, or the night before (call display FTW)!

You wouldn't last long in the navy then. All sailors, when posted to ship, are expected to be able be on ship within 4hrs unless they are on out of area leave. You are expected to have a number by which you can be reached in case the ship's company is recalled.

Cleanping up butts? Not without PPE and the supervisor better be doing it too.

Butts has you in a tiff? But as easy. Butts don't smell and all you need is a pair of latex gloves. Try sorting gash or landing wet gash. Also, what are you going to do if your supervisor doesn't do it with you? Not Follow order? Maybe he has something more important to do.

Work is done at 1530 - I’m out the door, send a FN outlining your issue with me leaving at the end of my day.

Again, you'd make a poor sailor and everyone would hate you for skiving. You go home when "secure" is piped, which is almost always 1545 (but may be he delayed a few minutes if all rounds haven't been signed if yet). However, if there is a major evolution going on (cold move, storing ship, ammunitioning, fueling, basic trial, OTT1/2,etc) and that even is delayed in getting done, will you're not going home. Now that doesn't mean the navy is heartless. If someone went up to their suervisor and said "I really can't say late today because of X", then they will very likely let that sailor go, if possible. My point is, you can't just say "fuck you boss, it's 1530, im out" in the military.

 

[SupersonicMax]

The expectation is to get jobs DONE, not put is x number of hours.

This goes both ways. It is NOT you work at least 8 hours unless we need you for more, in which case, you work more. Got the job done in 2 hrs? Go home.

There are assumptions based in our pay, which includes 3% overtime for officers and 6% for NCMs. This is based on 20 days a month, 8 hours a day.

 

[Lumber]

This goes both ways. It is NOT you work at least 8 hours unless we need you for more, in which case, you work more. Got the job done in 2 hrs? Go home.

There are assumptions based in our pay, which includes 3% overtime for officers and 6% for NCMs. This is based on 20 days a month, 8 hours a day.

Yes and this goes across postings, not just specific tasks. At one posting you work 10 hr days getting an HR deployer ready, at the next posting,m you work 6 hrs days with only 3 hrs of actual work... maybe... I'm looking at you, Traning Development world.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Where does this still happen? We wonder why we have a retention problem - it’s the leadership who perpetuate these examples that are slowly killing our numbers.

I know of a young bdr that was recently called in extra early and couldn't find last-minute day care so they informed the CoC they couldn't. Apparently that was recieved like a nuke and now she's getting picked up for every small infraction you can imagine.

I wouldn’t answer the phone at 5am for an early show, or the night before (call display FTW)!

Now soldiers get told they WILL answer their cell phone when the CoC calls and if they miss it they have a set amount of time to respond from when the call was placed or they'll recieved remedial measures.

You wouldn't last long in the navy then. All sailors, when posted to ship, are expected to be able be on ship within 4hrs unless they are on out of area leave. You are expected to have a number by which you can be reached in case the ship's company is recalled.

A constant 4-hour notice to move sounds terrible. Even CANSOF doesn't do that.

 

[mariomike]

My point is, you can't just say "fuck you boss, it's 1530, im out" in the military.

Try refusing end-of-shift OT in some non-military jobs. FAFO

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I know of a young bdr that was recently called in extra early and couldn't find last-minute day care so they informed the CoC they couldn't. Apparently that was recieved like a nuke and now she's getting picked up for every small infraction you can imagine.



Now soldiers get told they WILL answer their cell phone when the CoC calls and if they miss it they have a set amount of time to respond from when the call was placed or they'll recieved remedial measures.




A constant 4-hour notice to move sounds terrible. Even CANSOF doesn't do that.

When you are ready duty ship (which is not all the time, granted), that is reality.

 

[brihard]

Try refusing end-of-shift OT in some non-military jobs. FAFO

Yup. ‘Neglect of duty’. Sometimes stuff just has to get done.

 

[mariomike]

Yup. ‘Neglect of duty’. Sometimes stuff just has to get done.

Those five chilling words, "Are you refusing this call?"

Even Delaying, but not refusing, Service cost the taxpayers $10 million.

 

[Quirky]

Lots of places. You're salaried employees, not wage employees. The expectation is to get jobs DONE, not put is x number of hours.



You wouldn't last long in the navy then. All sailors, when posted to ship, are expected to be able be on ship within 4hrs unless they are on out of area leave. You are expected to have a number by which you can be reached in case the ship's company is recalled.



Butts has you in a tiff? But as easy. Butts don't smell and all you need is a pair of latex gloves. Try sorting gash or landing wet gash. Also, what are you going to do if your supervisor doesn't do it with you? Not Follow order? Maybe he has something more important to do.



Again, you'd make a poor sailor and everyone would hate you for skiving. You go home when "secure" is piped, which is almost always 1545 (but may be he delayed a few minutes if all rounds haven't been signed if yet). However, if there is a major evolution going on (cold move, storing ship, ammunitioning, fueling, basic trial, OTT1/2,etc) and that even is delayed in getting done, will you're not going home. Now that doesn't mean the navy is heartless. If someone went up to their suervisor and said "I really can't say late today because of X", then they will very likely let that sailor go, if possible. My point is, you can't just say "fuck you boss, it's 1530, im out" in the military.

That's all Navy nonsense. No wonder that organization is bleeding people. I can't imagine the Army is any better.

The only people who pick up butts are the smokers.. No one gets called in early, ever. There is nothing critical or important in what we do, that's CAF wide. You may THINK you're important, but you're not. If we're done at 3 or 3:30, that's it, no coming back.

however they do compensate pretty well for that level of control.

Use 3/4 days of annual to get two+ weeks off during Christmas is unheard of, and people still complain they 1. Don't have enough leave or 2. Are being forced to use leave. The only thing I would like is the ability to accumulate as many days per year as I want, without COs approval. If people want to keep working then let them bank it for when they're older.

 

[Eaglelord17]

That's fair. Is there a penalty if you get called the night before and told to show up 2 hours early and you say no you can't?
I don't know much about unions or collective bargaining but I know there's hell to pay when DND civilian employers are kept past 1600hrs.
If you're unionized I can't imagine there is a credible threat you'll be fired for refusing to be called in early.


I'm open to being wrong in my assumption.

Again from my small knowledge of civilian jobs I find it hard to imagine workers being told to go clean up garbage or cigarette butts or risk some kind of punishment.
Likewise for having additional jobs dumped on you or working at the next pay incentive without being compensated. I can see an AS-1 covering off for an AS-4 for a short period of time. 6 months or a year? Not so much.

Maybe the difference between unionized and non-unionized is being lost on me.

It depends on your workplace and job for being called in. You can be disciplined for refusing to come in if your able to. Or if your told your on call and refuse to come in there can be hell to pay. If your the junior guy and refuse to come in you definitely will have consequences. Its like anything there is a reaction to it. Not as extreme as the military, but can still have consequences up to losing your job depending on the situation. With my job in maintenance there are times the company is losing millions of dollars per day by being down, refusing to come in is not looked upon kindly when they are losing that much money. You may not specifically get fired for that, but they might start building a case to get rid of you.

I have to clean up all sorts of stuff. Clean up others messes at the machines I am working on. Pick up garbage off the ground. Spilled oil. Clean the parts I am about to work on, which can be covered in grease, oil, and other nasty stuff (worst thing was a item from byproducts which I don't know exactly what was on there, but had to use respirators, and give a through wash afterwards because it was extremely toxic). When covid was a big thing they had us going around and sanitizing everything a million times a day.

As to working above your pay that is a standard in many places. I am currently a machinist apprentice (just about ready for getting the ticket). Since I started my apprenticeship I have basically been doing the job of a ticketed machinist without much training at all. I have been getting apprentice wages that whole time though. I know plenty of people in the food industry who were made 'assistant managers' and made to do all the work of a manager being strung along the whole time being told if they work hard and prove they can do it they will get promoted to manager. Promotions never came, just made to do more work for less pay. Until they quit and go elsewhere. This isn't universal to the food industry either, many of the other lower wage industries (phone companies, general stores, etc.) do this and do this regularly. Unlike the military which may recognize you for those efforts eventually, those places never will and will keep you where you are at until you quit. Why would they actually promote you, your doing the work but costing them less?

Unions can only do things that are based on the collective agreement. If there is no agreement in place for what they are telling you to do, your going to do it or get fired. That is also only if the union is called about the problem, and is strong enough to fight about it. I have been in a weak unionized environment and it was worse than being in a non-unionized environment. Might as well have not been unionized in that case for how little they did for us.

 

[Jarnhamar]

When you are ready duty ship (which is not all the time, granted), that is reality.

Right, I thought we were talking much longer periods.

 

[AmmoTech90]

I don't know much about unions or collective bargaining but I know there's hell to pay when DND civilian employers are kept past 1600hrs.

Civilians can be ordered to do overtime. I have been, and have directed to do so. I always make sure there are funds available. That's the sticking point. The collective agreement says OT should be paid the next pay period. If you don't have the SWE, you can't direct the OT. Do it once without the SWE, or try to order the employee to take Comp Time and welcome to grievance world.

The hell to pays is a result of management panicking because they didn't have any contingency plans or lack the courage to call their boss and say, I fucked up, can you authorize some OT?

If there is excessive OT directed/ordered the union can demand consultation with the DM or their rep. Nothing about being able to refuse work due to OT.

 

[dapaterson]

The CAF is poor at time management, and that lack of planning / management is reflected in their engagement with both public servants and part-time members of the military.

Since Reg F pay is centralized, there's no local visibility on the cost of military personnel, so their time is a resource that has no local value - and behaviours reflect that.

Of course, devolving Reg F pay would also likely incentivize other unwanted behaviours - imagine if a CO could save money by refusing pay incentives or delaying promotions...

 

[Furniture]

Since Reg F pay is centralized, there's no local visibility on the cost of military personnel, so their time is a resource that has no local value - and behaviours reflect that.

This is likely the root of most of the called in early, or kept late complaints.

Coming in early on occasion isn't terrible, getting called in a couple of hours early to stand around because of the 15 minute game is.

 

[Lumber]

A constant 4-hour notice to move sounds terrible. Even CANSOF doesn't do that.

Only one ship is at an actual notice to move (the ready duty ship, and it's usually at 8hrs notice to move). But, every other shop in dockyard is expected to be able to stand up a dedicated force protection component within 4hrs of an increase in FP level, and that necessitates that all of their crew be contactable and available to be aboard within 4 hrs notice.

 

[mariomike]

Civilians can be ordered to do overtime.

OT, mandated or voluntary, paid cash or lieu. Your choice.

OT on a Stat Holiday paid triple-time-and-a-half.

You could call in on days off and volunteer for OT. Then, refuse the cash, and take the lieu time.

Which meant they had to call in more OT. And so on, and so on, ...