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Leopard as Urban Fighting Vehicle?

The Bread Guy

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A colleague of mine passed this link along to me, and I thought it might be of interest....

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/id-leo.htm

"Matt Fisher considers one possible alternative to the CF's Mobile Gun System â “ Converting a small number of the CF's retiring Leopard C2 MBTs into CATs (or Close Assault Tanks)  specialized for the 'Combat In Built-Up Areas' role."

And here's what it could look like....


Am I the only one thinking no matter what you put on a tank, it AIN'T made for fighting in cities?


 
Don't trust that Matt Fisher guy - he smells funny.

milnewstbay said:
Am I the only one thinking no matter what you put on a tank, it AIN'T made for fighting in cities?

Funny, that's not what the US Army and Marines thought when they used M1's on point in Fallujah.  It is written all over the AARs (and hence the new mods for the Tank Urban Survival Kit)
 
Hey, anything that attracts attention (read incoming fire) away from the infantry a good thing  ;D
 
George,

Is this "cannister" ammo a new thing for tanks? I've done some poking around, and I have'nt seen it anywhere else.
 
It seems that Armour is refinding its role (just look for Tiger II's in the defence in WWII) as the mobile pillbox.  Hey, whatever helps us win.
 
GO!!! said:
George,

Is this "cannister" ammo a new thing for tanks? I've done some poking around, and I have'nt seen it anywhere else.

Cannister aka grape shot has been used for a couple hundred year I know that it was used in the american civil war. And this would be a perfect weapon for CQB. Here is an earily example of Cannister shot from the American civil war.
 
I've read of a 105 mm canister round that the US employed in Vietnam.  Rather than ball-bearing, it was filled with flechettes.
 
Canister has been aroudn for a while -- I dont think they had 120mm until recently though...  And PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT -- and I think they are getting that...  ;D


 
I'm all for shoving 8' lengths of 1" link chain down the barrel.  Now THAT'S street cleaning...
 
Canister shot has been around for hundreds of years, not likely in the 120mm rounds of today, but still very deadly.
And Im talking pre-american civial war. Napoleanic wars it was used, favorite round of ships clearing upper decks of an enemy ship.
Great against advancing line infantry and square formations. And if I remember correctly, many wars prior to those as well.

Dan
 
I'm all for shoving 8' lengths of 1" link chain down the barrel.   Now THAT'S street cleaning...

And there is always the regimental silver when all else fails....arrrr

Earliest reference 1573 according to this article

http://www.aeragon.com/o/am/index.html#case%20shot

 
Hope this helps:
From National Defence magazine (http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2005/sep/uf-army_developing.htm):

September 2005

Army Developing Advanced Ammo for Abrams Tank

By Joe Pappalardo

To be more useful in urban battlefields, the Army's main battle tank needs to be armed with advanced multipurpose rounds that can be adapted for use against different types of targets, officials said.

"Overall, that is where we need to be going," said Army Col. Mark Rider, project manager for maneuver ammunition systems.


http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2005/sep/Images/p16.jpg


"Kinetic-energy rounds are being sent to the rear," Rider noted. "From a logistics and operational standpoint, our tankers have to have the ability to ... make them multipurpose. There will be fewer specialty rounds."

As the war in Iraq shifted from limited armor engagements to counter-insurgency, tank units rediscovered their roles in urban combat. Current ammunition, however, is better suited to defeat hordes of Cold War-era Soviet tanks, rather than insurgent guerillas dug into houses and bunkers. A multipurpose round would offer tankers flexibility to target not only armored vehicles but also foot soldiers or light trucks, even if they are shielded by a rock wall or within a fortified concrete shelter.

The Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J., is developing line-of-sight multipurpose (LOS-MP) munitions that would replace four rounds currently used in Army and Marine Corps tanks.

The new round uses a fragmenting warhead and programmable fuses that can be set for either point-detonation against hard targets or for airburst, to strike soft targets. The fuse settings are controlled via datalink and operated by the tank crew with a mouse click.

"One size fits all-that's the best way to put it," said Ernie Logsdon, division chief of the Munitions Systems & Technology Directorate at Picatinny.

The LOS-MP program started in 2004. "I think the urban tank experience in Iraq emphasizes the need for this round, especially for the Abrams tank, although the request did not start this way," Logsdon said, explaining that the program was designated originally for the Future Combat System's mounted combat vehicle, which is not scheduled to enter service until at least 2014. The Army decided to accelerate the development of LOS-MP, so it can be fired from Abrams tanks.

If funded to completion, the LOS-MP would replace the M830, M830A1 and M908, as well as the just-released M1028 canister round.

The M830A1 is a high explosive shot with a limited antipersonnel component, and tank crews must flick a switch manually for the round to be used against enemy helicopters. All the other current Abrams rounds are what the Army calls "dumb bullets."

The M908 was initially developed in 1996 to destroy obstacles, such as bunkers. The round penetrates concrete before detonating.

The M1028 canister round has only recently been available to Army and Marine tank crews in Iraq. The round, fired from the main cannon, contains tungsten balls that fan out into a 500-meter lethal shotgun blast.

In January, General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems was awarded a $5.8 million contract for low-rate production of 3,600 M1028 rounds. The company will assemble the projectiles at its facility in Red Lion, Pa.

Although new, this canister would be replaced, along with its three brethren, by a single multipurpose round. The Maneuver Armament Systems and ARDEC together are designing two different versions; the full-bore XM1069 and the sabot XM1068.

The full bore is more lethal at close ranges, while the sabot has a smaller diameter, fewer explosives and better reach.
"If the user requirements come in and they want a longer range, we'll go with the 1068," said Logsdon. He said both versions of the multipurpose round offered as good or better lethality as the rounds they would replace.

LOS-MP would not be the preferred munition for direct tank-on-tank battles. Kinetic energy rounds would be loaded for such an engagement, according to Pete Cardell, deputy product manager for maneuver ammunition.

There are no tungsten balls or other projectiles in LOS-MP. Instead, the warhead is designed to come apart into whirling chunks of shrapnel when it is set to the airburst mode. Unlike the current canister, it would be lethal and accurate at long range.

One eager customer for new types of ammunition is the Marine Corps, which has operated the 70-ton Abrams since the early 1990s. Marines have been involved in the development of both the canister round and LOS-MP, Lodson said.

Having a multipurpose round in the arsenal has many benefits, boosters at ARDEC said. The logistical footprint of a multipurpose muniton is smaller and easier to track in the transportation cycle. A successful LOS-MP would "wipe the logistics burden away. We'd be going from five rounds to two," Logsdon said.

Other advantages come in the procurement process. By consolidating the rounds, the military would increase the size of the munitions orders. In theory, that would lower the price per round.

Since the tanks only hold 40 rounds, having more flexibility is vital, Logsdon added. "You have to figure out the percentage before the fight," he said. "With LOS-MP you have more options from one round ... And you have greater lethality than with the current set."

If funded for the 2008 fiscal year, the munition could be fielded as early as 2010 or 2011, he said. The program is vying against other projects for funds, Cardell said. "There's a lot of competition."
 
That being said...Cannister Rounds have been around for the 105 since Vietnam.  They did contain Flachettes and later ball bearings.

Now of interest may be the LOS-MP round.  There are no tungsten balls or other projectiles in LOS-MP. Instead, the warhead is designed to come apart into whirling chunks of shrapnel when it is set to the airburst mode. Unlike the current canister, it would be lethal and accurate at long range.  Meaning we could then reach out and touch somebody.

 
Further to Georges last I have seen the Leo's fire cannister at about 60 fig 11 targets.

There weren't many left after the first round.
 
Iraq just became a little more interesting... top that Remington and Mossberg!
 
milnewstbay said:
A colleague of mine passed this link along to me, and I thought it might be of interest....

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/id-leo.htm

"Matt Fisher considers one possible alternative to the CF's Mobile Gun System â “ Converting a small number of the CF's retiring Leopard C2 MBTs into CATs (or Close Assault Tanks)   specialized for the 'Combat In Built-Up Areas' role."

And here's what it could look like....


Am I the only one thinking no matter what you put on a tank, it AIN'T made for fighting in cities?

I've got some experience that says otherwise.  PM me if you want to continue this discussion offline.
 
Infanteer said:
It seems that Armour is refinding its role (just look for Tiger II's in the defence in WWII) as the mobile pillbox.   Hey, whatever helps us win.

All the accounts I've read have the Tiger II units losing in 1945...They were moderately useful in Arnhem in a defensive (and urban) role, but a look at the SAR history and some other sources shows they were usually outmaneuvered, drenched in artillery, or taken out by tactical airpower on the western front.
 
Michael Dorosh said:
All the accounts I've read have the Tiger II units losing in 1945...

I don't care about 1945 results - we don't see too many M1-A1's being killed by insurgents; especially considering that they don't have any air and artillery capability at all.  The fact is that a well protected tank being used in an urban scenario as a mobile pillbox rather than a fighting vehicle in the open was another viable way to employ them; they aren't simply made for charging across the deserts of Mesopotamia or the plains of Germany - perhaps the German use of the Brumbar in Warsaw is a better example.
 
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