Life after death

[cld617]

I am ok that you have 'faith'.  Let's agree that 'faith' means that you believe in something even though it cannot be proven (or disproven).

I think it's important to point out the flaw in this sentence. Until something can be shown to be true it requires faith to accept it, rejection however of that same thing is not faith based. There is zero faith requirement to reject it, and I think it does a disservice to suggest otherwise.

 

[mariomike]

Meaning that MM insinuated that no one reports life-after-death experiences involving Hell.

I was joking about something I read in the paper.

"...woman who was shocked back to life five times, described seeing heaven and Jesus."

Even put a  and a cartoon.

I pointed out that they are indeed documented and those who’ve experienced them feel just as strongly about their validity as those who have experienced life-after-death instances involving Heaven.

I learn something new every day on here. 

 

[BeyondTheNow]

I was joking about something I read in the paper.

"...woman who was shocked back to life five times, described seeing heaven and Jesus."

Even put a  and a cartoon.

I learn something new every day on here. 

Ok...? I clarified my own post based on what I interpreted of yours in order to avoid confusion about the intent of my initial words.

 

[FJAG]

Most of you who know me know that I'm a professed atheist. Let me simply say I'm skeptical about any anecdotal revelations of near death experiences with some putative afterlife. Documenting anecdotes is not research.

Two years ago I had the misfortune of having a back injury that required some serious surgery. On the day of the operation I went through a pre-op process and was wheeled into the operating theatre just after 08:00 am. Drips were hooked up to venous catheters on the back of my hands and after a short struggle with my gag reflex, the anesthetist managed to get a tube down my throat and within seconds everything went black. A "few seconds" later I woke up and found myself in the post-op room where the clock on the wall said 5:00 pm. I'd been under for over eight hours where I had felt nothing, heard nothing, dreamed nothing and experienced nothing (thankfully).

IMHO people who profess experiencing some near-death visions are either fabricating the event or are still experiencing, even if only for a fraction of the time, some form of active dream state influenced by their religious beliefs.

My experience wasn't a near death one, just one under properly controlled anaesthesia but it left me convinced that when your consciousness and sensation are suppressed (as they would be in death) there is simply no awareness.

Man! This is a morbid topic.

!

 

[mariomike]

"The Emerald Piper, that's our Hell. It's an Irish bar where every day is St. Patrick's Day for ever." 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbfji5eozAo

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Most of you who know me know that I'm a professed atheist. Let me simply say I'm skeptical about any anecdotal revelations of near death experiences with some putative afterlife. Documenting anecdotes is not research.

Two years ago I had the misfortune of having a back injury that required some serious surgery. On the day of the operation I went through a pre-op process and was wheeled into the operating theatre just after 08:00 am. Drips were hooked up to venous catheters on the back of my hands and after a short struggle with my gag reflex, the anesthetist managed to get a tube down my throat and within seconds everything went black. A "few seconds" later I woke up and found myself in the post-op room where the clock on the wall said 5:00 pm. I'd been under for over eight hours where I had felt nothing, heard nothing, dreamed nothing and experienced nothing (thankfully).

IMHO people who profess experiencing some near-death visions are either fabricating the event or are still experiencing, even if only for a fraction of the time, some form of active dream state influenced by their religious beliefs.

My experience wasn't a near death one, just one under properly controlled anaesthesia but it left me convinced that when your consciousness and sensation are suppressed (as they would be in death) there is simply no awareness.

Man! This is a morbid topic.

!

Thanks for sharing FJAG.

My own feeling is that I don’t know that it’s a fair comparison, though, to assume that the brain is operating the same way under anesthesia as it would be when someone is in a state of dying, or has been pronounced deceased. (Need a dr. to verify though ;D) To me, it’s precisely the fact that specific brain functions/awareness has been artificially suppressed that it might inhibit any sort of similar experience as a near-death episode.

I’ve been put completely under 4 times, as well as in complete respiratory arrest 2 times during my life. In all instances I’ve never had any sort of ‘experience’ to warrant any belief either way. I certainly agree with your description. Time didn’t exist...hours flew by in what felt like seconds. The most I recall in a couple of the instances is dizziness before feeling/seeing nothing until I was awake again.

Anyway, I’m not a medical professional by any means. But my understanding from what I’ve read here and there is that even though the brain is shutting down during death, it’s not the same as a completely functioning brain under anesthesia, so I don’t know that one set of conditions is equal in what’s possible compared to the other set of conditions.

 

[FJAG]

Holy crap. One time under general was enough for me, thank you very much.

Just to carry on with the morbidity, I do believe that, depending on the event, different body parts shut down at different rates. I think that it takes the brain about three to six minutes to "die" when the blood stops circulating (although it may be only thirty to forty seconds before brain activity stops). Either way the whole idea of beheading (whether by sword, ax or guillotine) makes my skin crawl. Other organs can take up to twelve hours to "die".

Accordingly, I can easily see that there is a period of time where the brain stays active after the heart has stopped and that during this process thoughts may occur that might be remembered in the event that timely resuscitation occurs.

As an aside I'm a great fan of the old TV series "Dead Like Me". I always thought Mandy Patinkin and Ellen Muth turned in priceless performances as the "undead grim reapers" assigned by head office (by way of post-it notes) to shepherd the souls of those who die by external influences to whatever their particular afterlife portal may be. You can access the two seasons of the series on Crave TV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Like_Me

https://www.crave.ca/tv-shows/dead-like-me

:cheers:

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Holy crap. One time under general was enough for me, thank you very much.

Just to carry on with the morbidity, I do believe that, depending on the event, different body parts shut down at different rates. I think that it takes the brain about three to six minutes to "die" when the blood stops circulating (although it may be only thirty to forty seconds before brain activity stops). Either way the whole idea of beheading (whether by sword, ax or guillotine) makes my skin crawl. Other organs can take up to twelve hours to "die".

Accordingly, I can easily see that there is a period of time where the brain stays active after the heart has stopped and that during this process thoughts may occur that might be remembered in the event that timely resuscitation occurs.

As an aside I'm a great fan of the old TV series "Dead Like Me". I always thought Mandy Patinkin and Ellen Muth turned in priceless performances as the "undead grim reapers" assigned by head office (by way of post-it notes) to shepherd the souls of those who die by external influences to whatever their particular afterlife portal may be. You can access the two seasons of the series on Crave TV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Like_Me

https://www.crave.ca/tv-shows/dead-like-me

:cheers:

<chuckle>I don’t blame you. The circumstances surrounding each time were thoroughly unenjoyable.

That’s fantastic—I loved that show! It’s really too bad it was on such a short time. I enjoy dark humour and thought their tackling of very complicated issues through the type of humour they did was very creative. (I liked Six Feet Under very much also. Although their dealing of death and such wasn’t as humuorous, it still had its moments and it was all in all extremely creative.) And of course, I’ve been a fan of Patinkin since Montoya

All in all, I find the brain very fascinating. Also, as equally fascinating are the ways in which humans are affected in different ways and how we draw conclusions through our experiences. Regardless of what I do or don’t believe, I’ve always enjoyed when people share their thoughts on heavier or “morbid” topics.

 

[Kat Stevens]

When I was 14 I died for a minute and a half when my airway slammed shut from a penicillin reaction. There was nothing.

 

[mariomike]

Accordingly, I can easily see that there is a period of time where the brain stays active after the heart has stopped and that during this process thoughts may occur that might be remembered in the event that timely resuscitation occurs.

That period of time is longer now than it was years ago. When I hired on, CPR was just a railroad.

Now, with Advanced Cardiac Life Support ( ACLS ), defibrillation and drugs administered, the resuscitation effort may go on for a long time and the brain will take longer to die than it did years ago.

So, there could be all sorts of things going through their minds. Or, perhaps nothing.

 

[Pieman]

Speaking as a scientist, I think it is important to point out that we do have a very limited understanding of the universe. When you do look at models of the universe they are relatively simple approximations of reality and ultimately fragile.

Although I would never subscribe to a religion there are a number of scientific avenues where communication, existence, and connection do exist in very strange ways. 'Spooky action at a distance' still melts my brain where it can only be explained by higher dimensions...and not fully proven theories.

On top of that, I have seen too much death and felt the presence of those who passed to dismiss the experiences. They could be my subconscious creating images and situations to help me deal with grief (which may be an evolved coping mechanism common to us all), or it may be genuine.

I don't think there is a plan, and we are not special in any way from any other life form (on Earth or otherwise).

When you think about it, why are we so unbelievably distraught when a loved one passes? Is there an evolutionary mechanism that makes this brutal emotion important for survival? I don't see it, if one is there.

 

[mariomike]

When you think about it, why are we so unbelievably distraught when a loved one passes? Is there an evolutionary mechanism that makes this brutal emotion important for survival? I don't see it, if one is there.

The grieving process is healthy and natural.

Gets complicated for individuals unable to pass through it.

 

[FJAG]

The grieving process is healthy and natural.

Gets complicated for individuals unable to pass through it.

I think it's an extension or byproduct of the relationships we build; whether familial or friendships. These are people we like being around and when they go we feel a loss. I think for most of us grieving is a matter of degree (and I think involves pets and even inanimate objects) based on how attached we were to the person etc during our lifetime.

You're right. It's when you can't move on that the problems start.

:cheers:

 

[mariomike]

These are people we like being around and when they go we feel a loss.  :cheers:

Because they remind us of the good old days. 

"A phrase used by old people. It is a signal to young people to get the hell out."