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Little Honking Ships......

While I fully agree that larger, more capable ships like the Hyūga class helicopter destroyer are far more expensive and difficult to procure and man, I am a bit concerned about how much smaller ships would be able to handle and operate in the North Atlantic, or for that matter, operate globally like our current fleet does. Back in the Cold War, Soviet ships were not as capable as their Western counterparts because of their small size and limited habitability.

While there was a bit of sarcasm about the Admiral's suite in my post, since *we* do tend to go out on multinational missions, there is going to be the need for more staff and equipment for inteoperability, at a minimum. And of course if the reason for having these ships in the first place is to be able to embark a battalion's worth of troops, then there will be a need for an HQ on board, evenif it is a bunch of containers bolted to the deck. And of course, a full service flight deck and hangers for the air component is a must if you are using aircraft at sea.

Sometimes, size really does matter.
 
Kirkhill said:
PS

San Giorgio has no hangar.  Agreed.

But.

San Giorgio can move CH-146 Griffons from the Vehicle deck to the Flight deck via an elevator.

Actually, no. There are no elevators on the San Giorgio's save for a small supply one. There is a ramp system so the upper deck can be used to store more army trucks and jeeps, etc. and move them down to the well deck, but it cannot accommodate helicopters unfortunately.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against these small ships, but they are not a good capability fit for Canada. In Italy these San Giorgio's are not meant to operate alone: their doctrine calls for them to be a unit in a group headed by either the Carrier Cavour or the small carrier Garibaldi.

In Canada, we would need to meld some of these functions. If pure "command" capability is sought, then Absalon style ships  (on a CSC style hull/power plant) could do the job. If some form of landing capability combined with land operations is sought, Mistral's would be better (BTW, the Mistrals, based on a civilian ship type, are cheap vessels for the punch they give you and not more expansive than the San Giorgio's, which are military specs vessels).

The Enforcer family is exactly that: a family of ships. Their commonality stops at the hull and power plant level BUT they are all for the same function: landing ships. The CSC are fighting ships and are a family too: but of combatants (either optimized for AAW, ASW or GP, as needs be). Their hull is not optimized for lower speeds / wider stance required for landing ships that CANNOT be built to a common standard with CSC's.

Also, I was making reference to land staff more than admiral staff in my comments on lack of capability to accommodate: I have no doubt that pure "naval" direction of a naval task force by an admiral and his staff can be accommodated from any type of ship. After all, even today I suspect that push come to shove, an admiral and ten staffers can do the job.
 
OGBD:

I stand corrected on the San Giorgio but the Kalaat Beni Abbes appears to have been outfitted with a centre deck elevator. Based on the text and the images I believe those to be NH90s.

immagi11.png


I accept the distinction between civil and naval construction - and I would be happy to see either the Mistral or Enforcers in Canadian service.  My sense though, is that the RCN is not comfortable with civilian construction standards. 

I have been given to understand that while the AOPS was originally projected as an armed civilian vessel, and price estimates established on that basis,  the east coast has seen fit to ask at least some suppliers to provide milspec mechanical equipment.

Also, wasn't one of the differences between the Krupp and the BMT bids on the JSS the design standard, with the Krupp design being the naval standard version?

Finally, accepting your strictures on hull design, doesn't that still leave open the possibility of ensuring a common machinery and electrical package with a common bridge and engine room control architecture?
 
I find these topics very interesting, in that it seems that there is broad agreement amongst a wide array of individuals/SMEs that an amphiobious lift capability is of significant value to the Canadian government.  This conclusion also seems to have been reached by almost all significant naval forces in the world who
have a blue water fleet. The list of nations that now have dedicated amphbious/helicopter carrier/C2 ships is long and growing and includes a large
number of nations and navies comparable to Canada and the RCN.

I am not sure that cost is actually the real reason we have seen no real effort to incorperate an amphbious capablility (Of any sort whether Canberra
class, Mistral Class, Karl Doorman Class, San Giorgio) into the RCN.

It appears to me, as an interested observer, that the RCN as an institution is still focused on its WW1,WW2 and Cold War mission of providing escorts
to North Atlantic Convoy's and conducting ASW missions, at least insofar as the RCNs force structure is concerned.

As was pointed out previously in this thread the Royal Navy is planning on having 19 surface combatants and Canada is planning on 15. There is nothing
wrong with having 15 CSC's in and of itself, if they were part of what I would term a balanced fleet similar to what the majority of other blue water
fleets are creating. The problem as I see it is that the RCN is on track as an institution to be set up with a fleet no differant in terms of real
capability than what they have had since WW2. This will hold especially true if the CSC's end up with no capability for NGS and land attack.
I am not sure why the RCN seems to have not considered reducing the number of CSC's in order to build a fleet with a broader range of capabilities.
It seems that the RCN wants nothing to do with a balanced multi role fleet.

I do not think that that currently scheduled fleet composition is as useful in advancing Canada's national interests as a more balanced fleet with an
amphbious/helicopter carrier/C2 capability would be. However I do not see the RCN advocating or striving to achieve such a fleet nor do I see the
government actually forcing the RCN to adopt such a fleet structure.
 
Fabius said:
I find these topics very interesting, in that it seems that there is broad agreement amongst a wide array of individuals/SMEs that an amphiobious lift capability is of significant value to the Canadian government.  This conclusion also seems to have been reached by almost all significant naval forces in the world who
have a blue water fleet. The list of nations that now have dedicated amphbious/helicopter carrier/C2 ships is long and growing and includes a large
number of nations and navies comparable to Canada and the RCN.

I am not sure that cost is actually the real reason we have seen no real effort to incorperate an amphbious capablility (Of any sort whether Canberra
class, Mistral Class, Karl Doorman Class, San Giorgio) into the RCN.

It appears to me, as an interested observer, that the RCN as an institution is still focused on its WW1,WW2 and Cold War mission of providing escorts
to North Atlantic Convoy's and conducting ASW missions, at least insofar as the RCNs force structure is concerned.

As was pointed out previously in this thread the Royal Navy is planning on having 19 surface combatants and Canada is planning on 15. There is nothing
wrong with having 15 CSC's in and of itself, if they were part of what I would term a balanced fleet similar to what the majority of other blue water
fleets are creating. The problem as I see it is that the RCN is on track as an institution to be set up with a fleet no differant in terms of real
capability than what they have had since WW2. This will hold especially true if the CSC's end up with no capability for NGS and land attack.
I am not sure why the RCN seems to have not considered reducing the number of CSC's in order to build a fleet with a broader range of capabilities.
It seems that the RCN wants nothing to do with a balanced multi role fleet.

I do not think that that currently scheduled fleet composition is as useful in advancing Canada's national interests as a more balanced fleet with an
amphbious/helicopter carrier/C2 capability would be. However I do not see the RCN advocating or striving to achieve such a fleet nor do I see the
government actually forcing the RCN to adopt such a fleet structure.

I understand that CSC will have a 5 inch gun. Land attack missiles are being considered as well.
 
Fabius said:
It appears to me, as an interested observer, that the RCN as an institution is still focused on its WW1,WW2 and Cold War mission of providing escorts to North Atlantic Convoy's and conducting ASW missions, at least insofar as the RCNs force structure is concerned...It seems that the RCN wants nothing to do with a balanced multi role fleet.

However I do not see the RCN advocating or striving to achieve such a fleet nor do I see the government actually forcing the RCN to adopt such a fleet structure.
That would be my observation, as well, after having served on both coasts. Perhaps our RCN colleagues will comment, but this seems to be consistent with the MARLANT-centric culture that looks backwards at the Battle of the Atlantic instead of future brown water, littoral ops.
 
ArmyDoc said:
That would be my observation, as well, after having served on both coasts. Perhaps our RCN colleagues will comment, but this seems to be consistent with the MARLANT-centric culture that looks backwards at the Battle of the Atlantic instead of future brown water, littoral ops.
:ditto:
 
ArmyDoc said:
That would be my observation, as well, after having served on both coasts. Perhaps our RCN colleagues will comment, but this seems to be consistent with the MARLANT-centric culture that looks backwards at the Battle of the Atlantic instead of future brown water, littoral ops.

No doubt in my mind you are right on this one. 
 
An interesting observation: the biggest honking ships ever, Triple-E container ships, are coming off the line in Korea at a price of $185 million each.

These ships are larger than any other commercial ships, and are comparable to aircraft carriers in sheer size: 1312 feet long, have a beam of 194' and weigh 55,000 tons empty. Stood on end, one of these would be slightly shorter than the Empire State Building.

While they are not built to naval standards, the  idea that monsters like this can be built almost on an assembly line basis (from laydown to delivery takes about a year, and several ships are being built concurrently, so Maersk will be taking delivery every six or seven weeks until they receive 20; they have options for more as well).

It seems we need to modernize not only our procurment system, but the shipyards as well.
 
I've been monitoring this thread with great interest. I've been a zoomie for 18 years. I originally joined as a grunt. Having said that you can tell my opinion will be slightly biased towards Canada acquiring some sort of amphib vessel such as those listed above. While in East Timor I watched as the French were able to easily deploy their forces using the Sirocco a Foudre Class landing platform. All I could think of was that this would be a perfect ship for the sort of missions Canada is usually called upon. East Timor, Haiti, even rescuing Canadians from unstable countries such as we did in Libya. Having a pair of ships like this in the RCN would mean we stop using our valuable AORs as troop carriers. I know we're getting new AORs/LSS but these are integral to supporting our frigates (FFH) and destroyers (DDG/DDH).

Once again I don't profess to be an expert but I feel we could easily meet all our national and international commitments with the following:
- 10 Frigates (Air defense and Anti sub capable)
- 2 or 3 AORs/LSS w/command and control capability
- 2 amphib vessels w/heavy landing craft
- 4 MCDVs
- 6 to 8  fast long range patrol ships (polar capable such as Visby, Hamina, Braunschweig, maybe even the new USN littoral ships)
- 4 to 6 subs capable of polar operations

Our current balance of vessels was great for the Cold War but times have changed. We need to start worrying about the north. We are often called upon to help after a disaster (in Canada and elsewhere). We also need to seek ships that can be operated with smaller crews.
 
I have some questions regarding building to commercial standards vice naval standards.

What are the risks associated with a commercial standard build for a warship? I imagine its related to damage control capabilities and the ability to actually absorb damage?

I ask the question as it seems there is a growing number of warships being built to commercial standards at least when we are looking at the amphibious classes coming from Europe.  It seems like a number of navies have weighed the risks and decided that commercial standards are acceptable.
Does this acceptance stem from their doctrine,concept of employment and an evaluation of the likely threats to be faced or is it strictly a cost saving measure?
 
As far as the RCN hierarchy not planning for or taking on an amphib capability, I would say we need a CDS backed by a government willing to do so will have to force the issue on them.

I do not see the d day type beach landings being a realistic mission for us but certainly deploying a force quickly especially cansofcom units would be ideal. Think non combatant evacuation, anti-piracy with troops hitting land targets, etc, etc.

However I could definitely see a purpose for amphib ships in the future operating similar to a FOB at sea. Ideas? Thoughts?
 
ArmyRick said:
As far as the RCN hierarchy not planning for or taking on an amphib capability, I would say we need a CDS backed by a government willing to do so will have to force the issue on them.

I do not see the d day type beach landings being a realistic mission for us but certainly deploying a force quickly especially cansofcom units would be ideal. Think non combatant evacuation, anti-piracy with troops hitting land targets, etc, etc.

However I could definitely see a purpose for amphib ships in the future operating similar to a FOB at sea. Ideas? Thoughts?

I think you nailed it. Current and future ops are going to require deployment ashore. For some reason the RCN and Army looked at each other as competition rather than partners. With the new organization model that may be changing. If they worked together we could easily have an effective multi-role force much like the USMC.
 
Fabius said:
I have some questions regarding building to commercial standards vice naval standards.

What are the risks associated with a commercial standard build for a warship? I imagine its related to damage control capabilities and the ability to actually absorb damage?

I ask the question as it seems there is a growing number of warships being built to commercial standards at least when we are looking at the amphibious classes coming from Europe.  It seems like a number of navies have weighed the risks and decided that commercial standards are acceptable.
Does this acceptance stem from their doctrine,concept of employment and an evaluation of the likely threats to be faced or is it strictly a cost saving measure?

You have partly answered your own questions regarding the DC aspect and 'other' Navies employing more specialized yet smaller crews, have had issues in sustaining higher tempo Ops (Type 45, FREMM and Flt II/III AB come to mind).
The other is purely equipment related with a little doctrine attached. There is so much redundancy built into many systems that in theory, a ship can remain as a fighting platform even as it is sinking beneath the waves. The problem here is that due to our minimal roles (the Navy I mean) in combat operations in the last 50 years, risk mitigation is becoming the catch phrase and with the $$$ factor attached and ships are regularly sailing with either reduced redundancy or reduced capability having fallen back on the redundancy already (This is NOT confined to the RCN either). Does reduced redundancy equate to reduced operational ability? - I dare say that for the most part, no. Obviously a platform such as TORONTO is maintained at as high an operational capability as possible but regularly we steal from one to keep the other going. I am pretty sure that those in uniform who laid out the operational requirements during the design phase never had this in mind and I know the shipbuilder didn't.
An analogy I have used in the past though admittedly a tad skewed is that of an old(er) car. So you have this 25 year old Buick (not quite a Cadillac) that was NOT driven by a little old lady and though intentions were good, not all regular maintenance and even less corrective maintenance has been done to it in it's life. When you take it out the driveway, you floor it and you don't let up until you slam the brakes on at your destination-you drive it like it is stolen. Again, a bit of a stretch but even if you 'put-it-in-the-garage' for the winter and change the brakes and engine and give it a shiny new coat of paint (over the old dents/rust), do you really think you will get another 25...or 15...or even 10 years out of it if you continue to drive it like that with probably even less time for maintenance?
We need a bit of a culture adjustment I think right from the civilian designer in an office in Kanata, to the start up component company in some small town in the Prairies, to the individual welder/electrician/engineer in the shipyard and following, the operators and maintainers in uniform who employ it. I think until that happens, our ships will continue to age well before their time.
Finally, stop trying to design a ship with the capabilities of the Enterprise (and I mean NCC Enterprise). The trials and tribulations of the PRO and IRO class replacements are perfect examples of why this is a bad idea.

Okay, I am done....
 
I would think that our minimum of 15 CSC's has more to do with maintenance cycles and deployment requirements.

Consider, how many ships will be in a major refit cycle at any one time?  (Docking work period)

How many will be in a short work period?  (SWP)

How many will be in a Tiered Readiness Program in post DWP/SWP?

How many ships do we require, in order to keep maintenance done, and still accomplish the missions that the government has laid out for us?

Let us look at our current major combatant fleet of 12 frigates, and 3 destroyers.

With a large number of our 15 ships currently in that refit/maintenance cycle, we are, well, not scrambling, but stretched to cover deployments and taskings.  (Note the Australian IFR.)

If we go LESS than 15, will we be able to maintain our current capabilities, or lose them?

There is a minimum number of ships that you need to consider having in order to maintain a fleet.  If we drop below 15, then there will be, I suspect, a drop in our ability to meet national and international taskings.

Just my thoughts...

As for a Little Honking Ship...well, based on how long it's taking to get an AOR replacement, adding a capability....yeah....I'm not laughing, but I suspect that whichever shipyard we engaged would be laughing all the way to the bank, and we'd bust the 35 Billion dollar bank-roll by a LOT.

NS
 
ArmyRick said:
As far as the RCN hierarchy not planning for or taking on an amphib capability, I would say we need a CDS backed by a government willing to do so will have to force the issue on them.

I do not see the d day type beach landings being a realistic mission for us but certainly deploying a force quickly especially cansofcom units would be ideal. Think non combatant evacuation, anti-piracy with troops hitting land targets, etc, etc.

However I could definitely see a purpose for amphib ships in the future operating similar to a FOB at sea. Ideas? Thoughts?

Which comes back to my question about possibly having access to modified civilian "Auxiliary" Ro-Pax ships in our East/West coast ferry fleets when required.  I don't think we need the capability of storming a beachhead but there may be times when we need more than rented container ships in order to quickly deploy our forces to a relatively safe port near the conflict zone.  It's not something we need on a daily basis but when required it sure would be handy to have a couple of RCN(A) ships available on call.  It's not ideal by any means, but maybe affordable and "good enough" are better than wishes. 

A high speed ferry modified with upgraded power systems to control the "extras", upgraded sensor and communications equipment, a platform for landing/temporarily transporting helicopters for fair weather operations, maybe mounts for basic self-defense weapons, a platform  off the side for loading RHIBs, etc, and containerized systems for other special capabilities would give us a basic emergency capability that we don't currently have, but be more affordable because most of the time these ships would be making money for civilian companies performing normal commercial service on our coasts.
 
If the budget falls completely apart and the building program becomes unworkable, which seems to be the case, then scrap it and just buy ships from other countries.  We can purchase frigates/destroyers for $1 billion each, or less, no problem.  We can purchase AOR's for $500-600 million.  We can make reduced budget numbers work and still get good equipment.
 
AlexanderM said:
If the budget falls completely apart and the building program becomes unworkable, which seems to be the case, then scrap it and just buy ships from other countries.  We can purchase frigates/destroyers for $1 billion each, or less, no problem.  We can purchase AOR's for $500-600 million.  We can make reduced budget numbers work and still get good equipment.
That's similar to the rationale used when we acquired the Upholder class submarines. The Victoria class issues and resultant political fallout are one reason why we're not likely to purchase second-hand vessels - of any type - any time soon.
 
First of all, let me say that Pat is right on with his last post just above here, and that it is sad to say that it is the reason none of us will see the positive results of the government Shipbuilding Strategy, if such results ever happen.

Engineering is the heart and soul of modern ships, and warships in particular. Their existence and continued operation can only occur with the assistance of master craftsmen. And this is where we failed in the last 30 years: The dockyards were pressed to save on costs and as a result failed to hire sufficient numbers of apprentices and give them time to learn their trade from the retiring masters; our shipyards could not find enough work and let their craftsmen go, never to be replaced or without passing the knowledge base; in the Navy, the engineers became more and more operators first and maintainers/repairers second, again losing the discipline of the apprentice/craftsman. Such situation cannot be remedied quickly - it takes generations (plural) of master/apprentice to recover it. The European and Asian's have this tradition. We in North-America don't have it, at least not anymore. (And no, a "master" welder from Fort McMurray cannot just come in and become a "master" welder in a shipyard. There are too many differences).

So this said, and before we condemn the Navy brass as simply following the old cold war strategy, let us look at the strategy and the consequences of the engineering dilemma above.

Many moon ago, when preparing to release "Leadmark", the RCN looked at the whole spectrum of naval operations, analysed what each one required and would cost, looked at the resources available to the Navy and at the type of operations going on in the world from a Canadian experience and point of view. They rejected instantly carrier operations and ballistic submarines for obvious reasons, took a good look at mine warfare and realized we had never had such an attack in Canada in either world war or even during the cold war - so the limited capability of the MCDV's was enough. They seriously looked at amphibious operation (though one must understand that at that time, even the idea of the Special Op Regiment had not been conceived yet) and concluded that, considering the speed of their deployment "from home base in Canada" and "from scratch" with usefully trained soldiers onboard would require such lead time as to make them not useful to Canada. The alternative amphibious ops capability was forward deployment in contingency area - USMC style, which turned out to be too expensive for Canada. So it was shelved.

Leadmark's conclusion (and one I agree with) was that the best bang for our very limited Naval money was concentrating on General purpose forces deployable under the concept of the Canadian Task Force (One command/AAW ship deployed with one or two GP frigates and one support ship) deployed from each coast. This, by the way, is NOT the continuation of our cold war mentality. During the cold war, we concentrated completely and uniquely on ASW close escort of convoys. Everything else was left to our allies. The CTF concept led to development of new capabilities for the Navy and in particular in the command area, which is why, for instance, during the Gulf War, with only a three ships contribution, Canada was assigned the command of all forces in the gulf rear area (the largest command at sea by a Canadian since the retirement of BONAVENTURE), the only country other than the US given an operational command.

Going back to Leadmark and engineering: the reason to concentrate on the CSC's as a "single" class arises from the tremendous savings in training, supply/support and development of the ship particular knowledge base. Contrary to many European countries, Canada as a country has limited tradition of civilian support for its Navy and its operations. Thus, the Navy must always keep in mind the cost of its operations. We simply cannot afford the complexity of supporting a large number of different type of ships. This may change if the Navy is given new strategic direction from the Government (but "Canada First" is not a new strategic guidance - just a shopping list) and the resources to put it in effect.

And by the way, AirDet: the Navy/USMC team in the US is not a "multi-role" force. It is a single role: Amphibious ops - nothing else.

This said I would favour limited Amphibious capability at this stage for two reasons: (1) We now have a permanent special operations regiment that could incorporate and maintain the required knowledge base for amphibious ops and therefore be available quickly and (2) with the North opening but without good support base for the army and the Caribbean's becoming a new focus area of operations for the Navy, a small amphibious capability would be useful and deployable in a timely fashion from Halifax or Esquimalt.       
 
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