Little Honking Ships......

[dimsum]

Yes, but then one makes the case of what will be done with all the money we save and value added contracts.  The money that goes into labor is a small percentage of the $32 billion, so we show people the numbers.  If we put the money we save into healthcare, education, training, most Canadians will be quite pleased.  If we build 2 large ice breaker and all the other slated coast guard vessels, that will help build a sustainable industry on the West Coast.

Then, if we build corvettes and AOP's on the East coast, at the right yard, that might just get a sustainable industry going there.

Yes, but as Kirkhill and ERC have both alluded to, the fact that your argument can't be compressed into a shiny 15 or 30-second sound bite for Joe Canadian means that it will be a case of "the Euros are stealing our jobs!!"  The Opposition will take that and run with it, and Joe Canadian won't even sit down and listen to the argument for outsourcing.  God forbid the Minister who has to put his/her foot down and say that no, Canadian shipyards aren't up to the task of building the next generation of naval vessels due to cost.

I'd be interested to see how the RN managed to get the UK govt's support for a foreign-built tanker.  Even the RAN's Canberra-class LHDs, despite it being a Navantia design, are built in Australia (and it was also a political football).

 

[Kirkhill]

I put this here because I opened the discussion about the French being reluctant to forswear the revenues from the Mistrales.  That was a loss of about 1.4 BUSD.

Meanwhile Canada has given up 3.4 BUSD by putting a hold on a deal between Bombardier and Russia.....

Canadian aerospace and rail equipment giant Bombardier plans to build planes in Russia and the sale of USD 3.4B of aircraft will be delayed over events in Crimea.

Canada has joined the US in imposing sanctions against the country after it moved to annex Crimea, Chief Executive Officer Pierre Beaudoin said.

Bombardier signed a letter of intent in August to sell Russia's state-owned Rostekhnologii as many as 100 Q400 turboprop aircraft valued at about USD 3.4B. The Montreal-based company was expected to sign a deal to establish a turboprop assembly line in Russia in 2014.

Like the US and other allies, Canada has imposed financial sanctions and travel bans on Russian officials. Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government has also recalled its ambassador to Russia, suspended military cooperation and pledged USD 220M in financial aid to Ukraine.

Meanwhile, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin expressed his satisfaction with the suspension of Canadian company plans.

"I was not against Bombardier, but we must produce our own aircraft," Rogozin wrote on Facebook, Friday, Interfax reports.

- See more at: http://www.novinite.com/articles/159156/Canadian+Bombardier+Freezes+USD+3.4B+Plane+Contract+with+Russia#sthash.MvOQdCPa.dpuf

Courtesy of Sofia News Agency of Bulgaria.

I believe Harper might be finding his stride.

 

[FSTO]

Yes, but as Kirkhill and ERC have both alluded to, the fact that your argument can't be compressed into a shiny 15 or 30-second sound bite for Joe Canadian means that it will be a case of "the Euros are stealing our jobs!!"  The Opposition will take that and run with it, and Joe Canadian won't even sit down and listen to the argument for outsourcing.  God forbid the Minister who has to put his/her foot down and say that no, Canadian shipyards aren't up to the task of building the next generation of naval vessels due to cost.

I'd be interested to see how the RN managed to get the UK govt's support for a foreign-built tanker.  Even the RAN's Canberra-class LHDs, despite it being a Navantia design, are built in Australia (and it was also a political football).

I think the hulls were built in Spain and they will be fitted out in Australia

 

[Kirkhill]

Interesting Poll:

Should Canada spend more on defence?

 

[AlexanderM]

Interesting Poll:

Should Canada spend more on defence?

4%, only if bilt in Canada!  Probably get 70%, if it saves us a bunch of money.

Bottom line, if we don't have to build in Canada, we don't need to spend more money and we can build some in Canada with existing budget.  A little flexibility would take us a long way here.

 

[suffolkowner]

While Mistral's and Bay Class AAS might be unrealistic, perhaps we could follow the British and have a couple RO/RO ships on each coast crewed by Reserves and ready for use as needed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-class_sealift_ship

 

[Monsoon]

While Mistral's and Bay Class AAS might be unrealistic, perhaps we could follow the British and have a couple RO/RO ships on each coast crewed by Reserves and ready for use as needed

Commercial sealift is cheap and readily available for lease when needed - as compared to commercial heavy airlift, the world supply of which is limited and getting smaller, and which tends to get completely constricted by NGOs and other world militaries in times of crisis. This is why Canada opted to buy C17s instead of transport ships.

DND did used to maintain a leased commercial transport ship in Montreal for the purposes of rapid deployment; the lease program was ended early last year in the budget squeeze. If you ask me, we should go back to doing that before we think about buying transport ships.

 

[Kirkhill]

I like the idea of picking up a flat-top of any description if we can get it new and cheap from someone else's asset disposal sale.  I don't like the idea of building purpose built BHS's  (I used to be a fan but I've gone off them).

My preference is simply to make sure that every vessel in the federal government's fleet be equipped with a deck large enough to land a Chinook,  hangar space for at least an CH-148/149 (146s on minor vessels) and hotel space for a Platoon or Company of "permanently" embarked light troops - together with a mission bay/flex-deck. 

Once those requirements have been met then the vessel can be kitted out with whatever gear and weapons their "primary" mission requires.

 

[Stoker]

Love the idea of a "flat top" type vessel being purchased on the cheap as other navies downsize.  Most people don't realize the many millions required to Canadianize it to our standards, comms, weapons  etc. Then we need the personnel to run it. Hell we can't even man Orca's for frigs sake.

 

[George Wallace]

Love the idea of a "flat top" type vessel being purchased on the cheap as other navies downsize.  Most people don't realize the many millions required to Canadianize it to our standards, comms, weapons  etc. Then we need the personnel to run it. Hell we can't even man Orca's for frigs sake.

At the sounds of it, the French are selling them to the Russians bare assed.  No Wpns systems.  No Comms systems.  That means whoever buys them, has to install all that anyway.

 

[MilEME09]

At the sounds of it, the French are selling them to the Russians bare assed.  No Wpns systems.  No Comms systems.  That means whoever buys them, has to install all that anyway.

Wouldn't that save time in a way? I mean we wouldn't have to spent weeks/months ripping it all out to put our stuff in?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Commercial sealift is cheap and readily available for lease when needed - as compared to commercial heavy airlift, the world supply of which is limited and getting smaller, and which tends to get completely constricted by NGOs and other world militaries in times of crisis. This is why Canada opted to buy C17s instead of transport ships.

DND did used to maintain a leased commercial transport ship in Montreal for the purposes of rapid deployment; the lease program was ended early last year in the budget squeeze. If you ask me, we should go back to doing that before we think about buying transport ships.

A Canadian RFA ship might be a good idea, it would help Canadians get the ocean going seatime they need to compete and solve Canada's and NATO's transportation issues while maintaining security for shipped equipment.

 

[AlexanderM]

Build a smaller version of this, around 2500-2800 tons, then we're talking.  Of course change it over to the MK41 vls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formidable-class_frigate

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Why on earth would we want to do that?

 

[AlexanderM]

Because some people might think that deployable Corvettes would be a good option and that the current building program is a supreme waste of money.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You mean more like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hida_class_patrol_vessel
this one is slightly bigger than the Kingston's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aso_class_patrol_vessel

Just looking at the lists on Wiki, the Kingston's are fairly big for patrol vessels, the next step seems to jump up to the 2500-3500 ton range

 

[Journeyman]

Because some people might think that deployable Corvettes would be a good option and that the current building program is a supreme waste of money.

And some people think the earth is flat while other people think the moon landing was faked.

But in the context of this discussion, some people may think that even a passing reference to operational requirement would be useful.

 

[AlexanderM]

And some people think the earth is flat while other people think the moon landing was faked.

But in the context of this discussion, some people may think that even a passing reference to operational requirement would be useful.

A deployable, multirole Corvette could handle  ASW, Anti-piracy, Escort and Littoral duties, and is not out of line with littoral ships currently being built by other countries.  Operational requirements can be, and often are, redefined.

 

[Kirkhill]

You mean more like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hida_class_patrol_vessel
this one is slightly bigger than the Kingston's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aso_class_patrol_vessel

Just looking at the lists on Wiki, the Kingston's are fairly big for patrol vessels, the next step seems to jump up to the 2500-3500 ton range

1500 Tonnes would get you something like the Leonard Cowley or Knud Rasmussen for the 200 mile zone (EEZ)  - Coast Guard + RCNR?

3000 Tonnes would put you up to the Holland OPV as a deployable Littoral vessel.  - RCN?

6000 Tonnes buys you a fairly comprehensively equipped blue water platform capable of a broad range of tailoring.  RCN.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I would think that the Leonard Cowley or Knud Rasmussen type would be the most you want for this type, any bigger than manning, costs go out the roof. The Kingstons are very close in displacement as the WWII Flower Class Corvettes. Perhaps we can take the Kingston Class design keep what we like and perhaps slightly longer and build a newer more capable version.