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Lives lost, lessons learned

observor 69

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Five years ago this month, the first Canadian soldiers arrived in Afghanistan to begin their first real combat mission in decades. The deployment came after nearly 10 years of cuts by a federal government that was more focused on deficit reduction than military expansion. As they grappled with the transition from peacekeeping to conventional warfare, the Canadian Forces have learned many hard lessons, particularly about the state and capabilities of its equipment. GLORIA GALLOWAY describes some of the more pointed examples.


By GLORIA GALLOWAY 
David Bercuson, Alexander Moens, Wesley Wark, Scott Taylor and Richard Martin

Monday, February 26, 2007 – Page A4

http://tinyurl.com/34qe2n



 
Ref the article:

  What is a P90? I never saw one of them overseas.

 
Well, I wouldn't have called the M109 'easily transportable' either.....at least not within Canada's standard means.

P90 looks interesting.......I wonder if it would prove superior to C7 or C8 for Role 2 medics and Amb crews?
 
I found a few of the adjectives odd.  "Easily transportable M109s" and "Leopards not intended for long-range fire" are not phrases that I would use.

I'm not a small arms guy, but I've read some convincing reasons to stick with the C8 or C7A2 for CSS folks rather than introduce a new weapon such as the P90.  As such I have no idea why the P90 made it into the article if its about Canadians in Afghanistan.

 
Hmmm.....

While the Leopards are not meant for long-range fire, they can punch a hole in a mud-walled compound from 500 metres away.

This is utter tripe. Last time I heard panzers can engage over 2200m.

In the air, the Americans have much improved their night-sight capabilities since 2002, when they accidentally bombed Canadians taking part in an after-dark training exercise, killing four soldiers. And on the ground, Canadian troops can see movement at night from 1,500 metres away using specially equipped goggles.

Where is she getting this info from? The US doesn't improve anything unless it's required, and no offense to anyone that was involved with the incident, but a blue on blue engagement will not prompt them to improve a $38 million aircraft.

Then there is the P90, a handheld submachine gun with a needle-nosed bullet that cuts through body armour that has proven its worth in tight spaces, like the close walls of an Afghan compound. It has been in use since 1994 but has proven much more valuable in combat situations than on peacekeeping tours.

Really now? I've never seen a P90 being used in any theater besides on TV on Stargate SG1. Here's what Janes has on it:

Development           TOP

This weapon system, comprising the FN P90 sub-machine gun, the Five-seveN pistol and the 5.7 × 28 mm SS190 cartridge, was developed by FN Herstal to equip military personnel whose prime activity is not that of operating small arms - artillery, signals, transport and similar troops whose duties require that they be effectively armed for self-protection but who do not wish to be burdened by a heavy weapon while performing their normal tasks. It is a suitable weapon for special forces who require very compact firepower and also has police and paramilitary applications. The P90 is of a type often referred as a Personal Defence Weapon (PDW) as the cartridge is designed to provide more capability than the conventional pistol-calibre SMG.

The 5.7 × 28 mm SS190 was developed as the optimum cartridge for the P90 and is capable of imparting 90 per cent of its kinetic energy upon impacting with a target, a wounding capability enhanced by a distinct propensity to tumble inside the target. It is understood that the bulk of the filling for the lead-free ball projectile is an aluminium-alloy material. The ball projectile can penetrate more than 48 layers of Kevlar body armour at 200 m. Recoil forces are stated to be one-third of those produced by a 5.56 mm cartridge (the recoil impulse of the SS190 is 1.95 kg m/s).

In late 1999, the P90 TR (Triple Rail) was introduced (see below).

In May 2000, it was announced that the Cyprus National Guard had ordered 350 P90s for use by its special forces. The order included suppressors, laser target designators and tactical flashlights.

Tracer, subsonic and blank rounds are available, in addition to the SS190 ball round. Winchester-Olin also licence-produces 5.7 × 28 mm ammunition in the US.

Sales of the P90 series of weapons are limited to accredited government agencies only.

Description           TOP

The P90 is a blow-back operated weapon, firing from a closed bolt. The overall design places great reliance on ergonomics, to the extent that the pistol grip, with a thumb-hole stock, is well forward on the receiver so that, when gripped, the bulk of the receiver lies along the firer's forearm. The controls are fully ambidextrous; a cocking handle is provided on each side, and the selector/safety switch is a rotary component located under the trigger. Even the forward sling swivel can be located on either side of the weapon, as required.

The magazine lies along the top of the receiver, above the barrel, and the cartridges are aligned at 90° to the weapon axis. The 50 rounds lie in double-row configuration, and as they reach the mouth of the magazine, they are moved into a single row by a fixed ramp. A spiral ramp then turns the round through 90° as it is being guided down into the feedway, so that it arrives in front of the bolt correctly oriented for chambering. The magazine is a smoked translucent plastic so that its contents can be visually checked at any time.

The integral sight unit is an HC-14-62 reflex collimating sight produced by Ring Sights, the graticule being a circle and dot; in low light, a tritium-illuminated cross-hair appears. It can be used with both eyes open and allows very rapid acquisition of the target and accurate aiming. Should the sight be damaged, two sets of iron sights are machined into the sight base, one on each side; this duplication is another aspect of the ambidextrous design.

Detail design relating to ergonomics is such that the smooth-outlined P90 can be carried about the user's body in a manner that imposes a minimum of hindrance to movement and user comfort, no matter how the weapon is slung.

The weapon strips easily into three basic groups for field maintenance. Much of the body and internal mechanism is of high-impact plastic material; only the bolt and the barrel are of steel. Moving parts require little or no lubrication. Empty cartridge cases are ejected downwards through the pistol grip, which is shaped to offer a grip for the disengaged hand when firing from the shoulder.

Externally mounted tactical lights and laser aiming devices can be located on either side of the sight assembly on an accessory rail. Also available are a combat sling, a blank-firing attachment, a cleaning kit and a magazine pouch and filler. A special-to-type sound suppressor that screw-clamps over the muzzle attachment is available.

Variants            TOP

P90 TR sub-machine gun           TOP

The P90 TR has been dubbed the 'flat-top', as the usual Ring Sight sight unit is replaced by a section of MIL-STD-1913 rail, together with two shorter lengths of rail, one on each side. This arrangement allows the user to select an optical or other sighting system suitable for his specific requirements. The side rails can be used to attach combat accessories such as a tactical light or a laser aiming device. All other aspects of the basic P90 remain as before, although the loaded weight becomes 2.58 kg.

Special-forces variants            TOP

Two special-forces variants of the P90 are available, each with a laser target designator. The P90 LV uses an 8 mW visible laser for use in low-light conditions and in indoor situations. The P90 Laser Intercept Receiver (LIR) has a 4.5 mW infra-red laser which can be detected with night-vision devices. It is also possible to mount various forms of night sight.

Specifications           TOP

Basic P90
Cartridge: 5.7 × 28 mm
Operation: blowback; selective-fire, closed-bolt firing
Feed: detachable box magazine, located horizontally above barrel
Magazine capacity: 50 rds
Weights:
unloaded: 2.68 kg
with full magazine: 3 kg
Lengths:
overall: 500 mm
barrel: 256.5 mm
Height: 210 mm
Width: 55 mm
Rifling: 8 grooves, rh, 1 turn in 231 mm
Sights:
optical: optical reflex, ×1 magnification
iron: emergency iron sights
Muzzle velocity, SS190: 715 m/s
Projectile energy at 150 m: 232 J
Rate of fire: 900 rds/min
Range:
maximum effective range: 200 m
maximum range: 1,790 m

Status            TOP

In production. Service not confirmed but understood to include the Cyprus National Guard special forces (350), the Netherlands, Peru (special forces), Saudi Arabia and some other Asian nations, plus the US Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) and the US Secret Service.

huh....2 minutes of work and I'm already poking holes in her little story.....

Canada has also sent over light-armoured vehicles, or LAV-IIIs. But even the original LAVs were not reinforced to the standard required in Afghanistan, so the armour has been bolstered to give them added protection.

Holy crap, put down the duubie. The LAVs arrived in theater ready to go when they left the wire. Hell, most of them came straight from Kabul down highway 1.

This reporter and the rag she works for doesn't even do the most cursory of research into the topic that they are reporting at all.

How are the public going to be able to make an honest, educated, informed assessment of what is going on over there?

Wait a tick....forgot what paper she works for, never mind.

GARBAGE.

Regards
 
The p-90 looks cool but is not needed over in Afghanistan. It would be a waste of money as you do not need to penetrate body armour only man jammies. I concur with what was previously stated, this article was poorly researched.
 
There is also a seething argument on the need of a PDW now that there is a carbine version of the M16. The P90 does provide excellent ergonomics (compared to a SMG) but the knockdown effect of the non-armour pericing ammo is questionable, there is also an issue with the mags being a bit fragile and the ammo is not NATO standard. I believe the weapon is in use with various security details and some country issue them to dispatch riders. I think only one country has issued them as a standard weapon to their troops (Singapore?)
 
But it looks cool...


A good basis to buy weapons, as it is stated Nato Standard exists for a reason. We already have compact weapons in the system that work.

As it stands now I have yet to hear a complaint about our weapons.

Oh and SG-1... Nice :)
 
Recce By Death said:
Where is she getting this info from?

Apparently from one of the following:
"This material was filed with the assistance of David Bercuson, director of the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary; Alexander Moens, who teaches international relations at the Simon Fraser University; Wesley Wark, a security expert at the University of Toronto's Munk Centre for International Studies; Scott Taylor, editor of the military magazine Esprit de Corps; and Richard Martin, the president of Alvera Consulting Inc., who previously served with the military in the Directorate of Land (Equipment) Requirements and other departments."

It would be intriguing to know who Alvera Consulting has been consulting for, esp. in light of the not-exactly-voluminous returns to a Google search for Canadian sites:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=%22Alvera+Consulting%22&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryCA

Nil return on the Gov't of Canada Lobyists Registration System Public Registry, either.

Anyone know more places to poke around?

 
TAS278 said:
As it stands now I have yet to hear a complaint about our weapons.

I can't tell if that was sarcasm or not. I'm not being facetious here, I just can't tell.

Here are a couple of threads. I know you'll find some complaints, and very good insight in them:

C7A2:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23489.0.html

The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16):
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28664.0.html

(The C7 thread started over 5 years ago, and is still going)

 
Sig_Des said:
I can't tell if that was sarcasm or not. I'm not being facetious here, I just can't tell.

Here are a couple of threads. I know you'll find some complaints, and very good insight in them:

C7A2:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23489.0.html

The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16):
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28664.0.html

(The C7 thread started over 5 years ago, and is still going)

I was actually refering to friends and family :) I realize that there are flaws. Prespective is always different.
 
P90  ???  - more crap from the PDW cheerleaders
  FWIW Dutch SF used some in kabul -- and shortly after some shootings went back to using 5.56mm carbine or 9mm SMG's and pistols.

 
Colin P said:
There is also an issue with the mags being a bit fragile and the ammo is not NATO standard.
Remember when Canada was issuing the plastic mags?
I do.... even though I wish I didn't... lousy POS... in winter troops would go through a gross in no time flat when going to ground...
 
GLORIA GALLOWAY 

GLORIA GALLOWAY Gets Her Facts Wrong Again:        http://www.stephentaylor.ca/archives/000398.html

as to Alvera I will poke around here at U of C, Dr. B should be around for the paper symposium this weekend.







edit.  link didn't work, fixed it now I think.
 
3rd Herd said:
GLORIA GALLOWAY 

GLORIA GALLOWAY Gets Her Facts Wrong Again:        http://www.stephentaylor.ca/archives/000398.html

as to Alvera I will poke around here at U of C, Dr. B should be around for the paper symposium this weekend.







edit.  link didn't work, fixed it now I think.

Hmmm I wonder if she is related to that wingnut politican in the UK?
 
Before everybody gets busy tearing apart the accuracy's and inaccuracy's of the article, I would suggest  we take a look at the slant of the article. It's basically pro CF (from a non CF POV)....and this is good.
 
We never had twelve Chinooks, either. We bought eight. One crashed on its delivery flight. Boeing replaced it, but unfortunately could not do anything for the eight guys from 450 Sqn who died. Another burned up north when a rotor blade struck a wooden light pole, tearing out the aft transmission and causing the hel to rear up and topple over. Blade fragments pierced a nearby fuel tank, and we lost another three guys and three more were injured. We had seven left to sell to the Dutch.
 
Regardless of the slant GAP, I'd rather it be accurate.

Regards
 
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