Lumber's Career Mangement tangent, split from Re: Logistics Officer

[Lumber]

4) Finally, one of the things that attract me to the military is the job security and as well as potential for growth. Is this just a myth that every employer touts or is it real? I'm very dedicated and will work hard, and if merit is the biggest factor in promotions, I think am in good shape. My question really are promotions based on performance or basically who you know and how much "kissing" you are willing to do.

Right now I'm in my second year of a 13 year contract. How's that for Job Security?

Hope I don't step too far out of my lane here:

While I'm sure there are those who have had help getting ahead because of who they know and who's arse they kissed, promotions are based on performance and qualifications. For me, I start as an NCdt (Naval Cadet) and my training plan will guaranteed have me reach LT(N) (that's a Captain in the Army) unless along the way it turns out I'm a complete pile of dog turd, get caught organizing a prostitution ring etc,. and they kick me out.  ;D The promotion from NCdt to ASLT to SLT to LT isn't based on time-in, but on completing the courses along the way. After that you continue to take courses as the CF sees fit. Once/if you have all the courses required for promotion, they can put you on a merit list, where the best candidates for promotion are at the top and it works its way down. Eventually (hopefully) they'll get to your name and you'll be promoted.

My Captain last year on BOTP told us that people in the military don't get promoted to their competency level, they get promoted to one rank past that. So if, for example (his example), a Corporal is competent enough to perform the job of a Corporal (in whatever trade he's in) but he's just not competent enough to do the job of a Sgt. The CF will see him doing a good job as a Cpl and promote him to Sgt, then find out that too much for him, but they can't demote him unless he really f's up.

The problem I see with this is, if our training regime guarantees (more or less) that NCMs reach Cpl and Officers reach Capt (LT(N)), i.e. those are the ranks of the fully trained and qualified foundation of soldiers in the CF, and if we assume my Plt Cmdr was correct and that you get promoted to one rank past your niche, then aren't technically those "Cpls for Life" and "Capts for Life" that we hear about not actually competent enough for the job they were hired for? If everyone in the CF is competent to perform their trades as required, then shouldn't everyone at least get promoted to Maj. and Sgt. and THEN get 'stuck'? Was my Captain all out to lunch?

 

[armyvern]

My Captain last year on BOTP told us that people in the military don't get promoted to their competency level, they get promoted to one rank past that. So if, for example (his example), a Corporal is competent enough to perform the job of a Corporal (in whatever trade he's in) but he's just not competent enough to do the job of a Sgt. The CF will see him doing a good job as a Cpl and promote him to Sgt, then find out that too much for him, but they can't demote him unless he really f's up.

Annual Performance: The PER "Performance" criterion is assessed at the current rank level; the "Potential" criterion is assessed at the "next rank" Level.

IE: Cpl Bloggins performed admirably and experienced no difficulty when tasked to supervise the 0300 Tim Hortons run for a period of one month, a task normally assigned to MCpls.

That good Cpl in your scenario (and the Captains) above, would NOT be promoted to Sgt (and would not see his potential being assessed at the Sgt level). Rather, there's a little appointment that we call "Master" which falls in between --- and a Cpls "Potential" would be reviewed as to his abilities to perform at the appointed Master Corporal level.

Cpl Bloggins' PER "Potential" area would end with a statement such as: "Cpl Bloggins is recommended for immediate appointment to MCpl and posting to a first line unit."

Now if, perchance, he got my coffee order wrong --- it would read:
..."Cpl Bloggins performed well and experienced relatively few difficulties when tasked to supervise the 0300 Tim Hortons run for a period of one month, a task normally assigned to MCpls.
...
Cpl Bloggins is recommended for appointment to MCpl in line with his peers and posting to a first line unit."

 

[Michael OLeary]

The problem I see with this is, if our training regime guarantees (more or less) that NCMs reach Cpl and Officers reach Capt (LT(N)), i.e. those are the ranks of the fully trained and qualified foundation of soldiers in the CF, and if we assume my Plt Cmdr was correct and that you get promoted to one rank past your niche, then aren't technically those "Cpls for Life" and "Capts for Life" that we hear about not actually competent enough for the job they were hired for? If everyone in the CF is competent to perform their trades as required, then shouldn't everyone at least get promoted to Maj. and Sgt. and THEN get 'stuck'? Was my Captain all out to lunch?

So, by that theory, if you have a trade with 600 Captain positions but only 200 Major positions, the 400 Captains in each generation that don't get promoted are automatically "incompetent".  Try doing that over again with a realistic demographic analysis after you've been in long enough to actually experience the CF career management system.  You are way out of your lane. 

 

[armyvern]

My Captain last year on BOTP told us that people in the military don't get promoted to their competency level, they get promoted to one rank past that.

Our potential is assessed as to how we would perform at "the next higher rank" level --- ie examples are used in our PERs of how we "did" perform when we were placed into "higher" leadership roles/tasks (as per the example in my last post with the Timmies run).

Understand this:

IF Cpl Bloggins' potential assessment in his PER showed that he did NOT have the potential to perform "at the next highest level" and that he screwed up everyone's coffee orders, then he would NOT be promoted (in Bloggins' case -- 'appointed') to the next higher level. BUT he would still be a VERY competant Cpl, serving at the rank level that his competancy calls for (lest he'd be considered only a competant Pte by your reasoning of being a "rank higher" than one's competancy).

A Master Corporal HAS been assessed as being COMPETANT to perform at that level; likewise a Sergeant, a Warrant Officer etc. Their competance is NOT one rank lower than the one they wear on their sleeve.

Was my Captain all out to lunch?

I highly suspect that someone misinterpreted what his Captain told him. Attention is in the details, and in this case, those details make all the difference in the world. I'm quite sure that your Captain is not running about actually believeing that Sergeants are actually only competant Master Corporals, nor that WOs are only competant Sergeants.

I do think, that you simply missed something in his translation of NCM potential factor assessments and our PER system. Their competance (confidence??) will, of course, grow and widen as they spend more time IN a rank level, but they already demonstrated the ability to perform competantly AT that rank level to get there in the first place.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Hope I don't step too far out of my lane here:

My Captain last year on BOTP told us that people in the military don't get promoted to their competency level, they get promoted to one rank past that. So if, for example (his example), a Corporal is competent enough to perform the job of a Corporal (in whatever trade he's in) but he's just not competent enough to do the job of a Sgt. The CF will see him doing a good job as a Cpl and promote him to Sgt, then find out that too much for him, but they can't demote him unless he really f's up.

The problem I see with this is, if our training regime guarantees (more or less) that NCMs reach Cpl and Officers reach Capt (LT(N)), i.e. those are the ranks of the fully trained and qualified foundation of soldiers in the CF, and if we assume my Plt Cmdr was correct and that you get promoted to one rank past your niche, then aren't technically those "Cpls for Life" and "Capts for Life" that we hear about not actually competent enough for the job they were hired for? If everyone in the CF is competent to perform their trades as required, then shouldn't everyone at least get promoted to Maj. and Sgt. and THEN get 'stuck'? Was my Captain all out to lunch?

Your Captain was giving you the "Peter Principle" which you meet in Organizational Behaviour classes (amongst other things).  This is a somewhat humourus observation made to have an impact as opposed to a "law" of organizational behaviour proven by rigorous testing.    The principle goes that in a hierarchy people are promoted on their ability to perform the task that they are doing.  They then get promoted, but the next job may demand different skills and abilities than the one they are in.  There is a ring of truth to the Peter Principle and I am sure that we can all find examples that fit the bill but I wouldn't treat is an immutable law.  That not everybody gets promoted to MCpl or Maj shows, in my view, that the CF does take promotion seriously and that the "Peter Principle" should not be seen as a univsersal truth for the CF.

In the military people do, from time to time, get promoted past their ability.  Those making decisions on promotion cannot predict the future with perfection.  That being said, promotion in the military is a deliberate process with many checks and balances.  The system does not make everybody happy, but it is a system nonetheless.  As Vern mentioned the promotion boards look at both performance at the current level and potential at the next level.  There is, to be sure, a bit of guesswork at potential but it is a reasoned assessment based on several observers in different times and places and not a snap judgement.

Do not trouble your heart regarding the competency of the Captains and Corporals that you encounter.  Captains and Corporals provide the CF with a bedrock of experience and competency. 

 

[Lumber]

Hey how did you guys know I wanted to be a career manager!?

 

[Greymatters]

Your Captain was giving you the "Peter Principle" which you meet in Organizational Behaviour classes (amongst other things).  This is a somewhat humourus observation made to have an impact as opposed to a "law" of organizational behaviour proven by rigorous testing.    The principle goes that in a hierarchy people are promoted on their ability to perform the task that they are doing.  They then get promoted, but the next job may demand different skills and abilities than the one they are in.  There is a ring of truth to the Peter Principle and I am sure that we can all find examples that fit the bill but I wouldn't treat is an immutable law.  That not everybody gets promoted to MCpl or Maj shows, in my view, that the CF does take promotion seriously and that the "Peter Principle" should not be seen as a univsersal truth for the CF.

It was supposed to be a 'tongue-in-cheek' satire of why competent people become incompetent.  The point of the theory was not that all people become incompetent but that once people find out they arent good at something there is no process for allowing them to go back down one level in the hierarchy to where they were really good at their job.

And as T2B says, its not a universally applied theory, some people never reach their level of incompetence (or never get recognized for it anyway!) ... sounds like that Captain was a bit cynical and giving a bit of personal opinion rather than knowledge...

 

[PPCLI Guy]

sounds like that Captain was a bit cynical and giving a bit of personal opinion rather than knowledge...

And let's not forget that said Captain is basically a Lt that was promoted to his own particular level of incompetence, according to HIS theory....and what do Lt's know anyhoo? 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

How to read a map...?

Oh boy, don't we wish........ ;D

 

[Shamrock]

How to read a map...?

How to photocopy a map.

 

[vonGarvin]

Officers and maps don't mix.  When I was a rifle pl commander, and if the troops were acting up, I threatened to pull out my map AND compass if they didn't straighten up!  >

 

[medaid]

Lts are only allowed to make notes and route drawings on the maps, they're not allowed to photocopy it, that's a Capt's job. A 2Lt is only allowed to look at a map but not allowed to touch it, and an OCdt is not allowed to even gaze upon such a document. They get to hold the map case. ;D

 

[benny88]

Lts are only allowed to make notes and route drawings on the maps, they're not allowed to photocopy it, that's a Capt's job. A 2Lt is only allowed to look at a map but not allowed to touch it, and an OCdt is not allowed to even gaze upon such a document. They get to hold the map case. ;D

  When will they teach me the secrets of ye olde ancient scrolls! 

 

[aesop081]

   When will they teach me the secrets of ye olde ancient scrolls! 

The first time a WO grabs you by the shoulder and says "Hold on there Sir, before you get someone killed", the lesson will begin.

 

[Lumber]

The first time a WO grabs you by the shoulder and says "Hold on there Sir, before you get someone killed", the lesson will begin.

The confidence in Officers here is enthralling; it's very motivational.

 

[George Wallace]

The confidence in Officers here is enthralling; it's very motivational.

Call me a little slow on this one, but would you like to elaborate on your above theorem?

 

[Lumber]

Call me a little slow on this one, but would you like to elaborate on your above theorem?

The first time a WO grabs you by the shoulder and says "Hold on there Sir, before you get someone killed", the lesson will begin.

etc.

 

[medaid]

etc.

I think I get to laugh at my own expense once in a while... don't you?

If one can only dwell on the fact that "oh people think so low of the officer or junior or subordinate officers thus..." instead of "Oh, how can I improve myself so I can not appear like an idiot every time I open my mouth and fulfill these stereotypes" you wonder why there will always and eternally be those who rib the subies... but then again most OCdt and NCdty deserve it... they're freaking KNOBS!

 

[Michael OLeary]

The confidence in Officers here is enthralling; it's very motivational.

Lumber,

It's time you sucked back to reload and stop believing everything your hear and read.

Just as one example, Rockpainter is am Infantry Captain, he's an Advanced Mortarman and an Instructor in LAV Gunnery.  As an Infantry officer he had to prove his skills with maps, etc., in order to design and run field firing ranges, and to do many other operational and training tasks he's been assigned.  He, like most combat arms officer as well as supporting arms officers, etc., rely on good map using skills to perform their jobs. 

That old adage of a junior officer and a map is a throw-away remark, pure and simple.  It's easy to poke fun at junior officers, and people take that opportunity, whether it's appropriate for the time or place or not.  But, the reality is, a map and compass are basic tools of a junior army officer and most use them without difficulty.  (And for every officer that had a hard time wrapping their heads around land navigation, there's probably one old NCO who only survived my memorizing routes and location nicknames.)

It's time you got over yourself and either learned to function here within the published rules and accepted behavioural norms, or to just be a spectator and worry about functioning in the real world with that attitude you've been showing here.

 

[Lumber]

I think I get to laugh at my own expense once in a while... don't you?

If one can only dwell on the fact that "oh people think so low of the officer or junior or subordinate officers thus..." instead of "Oh, how can I improve myself so I can not appear like an idiot every time I open my mouth and fulfill these stereotypes" you wonder why there will always and eternally be those who rib the subies... but then again most OCdt and NCdty deserve it... they're freaking KNOBS!

I realize some of what was said was meant to be humorous, and I hope MedTech that you're comment on the competency of O/NCdts was meant that way as well.

There is a huge difference between a "freaking knob" and someone who simply doesn't have the training or experience. Only the knobs appear to be idiots.

As for, "oh people think so low of the officer or junior or subordinate officers thus," I have self respect. Your suppose to care about your image no? It goes beyond dress and deportment, perception is reality. If you all think (and I'm not saying you do, but sometimes I seems like it) that Officers, Subalterns, and RMC Cadets are all automatically incompetent, lazy assholes simply because that's the stereotype that's being propagated, then I will speak out against it. I don't need to "improve myself" because I'm already doing that, and my grades and performace during course and OJT reflect that. Think of it this way, if we all started thinking MedTechs were pansies because they aren't front line combat soldiers, wouldn't you "dwell on the fact"?