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'Ma Deuce' Days May be Numbered

GAP

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'Ma Deuce' Days May be Numbered
Norman Polmar | June 17, 2008
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Probably the longest serving weapon in the U.S. military arsenal is the Browning .50-caliber M2 machine gun. Often referred to as "ma deuce" for its M2 designation, the weapon entered U.S. service at the end of World War I, being scaled up from the Browning .30-caliber M1917 machine gun. The .50-caliber weapon was initially designated M1921.

Using a round designed by Winchester, the .50-caliber machine gun was originally intended for ground troops to use against enemy troops. Subsequently, it was employed as an anti-aircraft weapon and then became the standard armament of U.S. warplanes. In 1932, the design was updated and redesignated M2.

Ground and naval machine guns could be air- or water-cooled, the latter having large "jackets" around the barrel. The weapons had rates of fire from 500 to 650 rounds per minute. Mounts for vehicle and shipboard use soon had twin barrels, while a fixed quad-barrel mount was developed for ground and vehicle use. Its light weight permitted up to eight guns to be carried in fighters and it fit into single-, twin-, and quad-barrel turrets on U.S. bombers. The weapon was used in every theater of World War II by U.S. and allied troops--by 1945 the U.S. Army authorized 237 .50-caliber guns in each infantry division, 385 in each armored division, and 165 in each airborne division.

The "ma duce" was used in large numbers in the Korean and Vietnam Wars, in other crises and conflicts, and, of course, in the Gulf War of 1991 and the later invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Now, after almost 90 years of service, the U.S. Army has moved to replace Browning's remarkable machine gun. The Army recently ordered three prototypes of a lightweight .50-caliber machine gun. Produced by General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products, the weapon weighs about one-half of the current .50-caliber M2HB (Heavy Barrel) machine gun, fires with less recoil and is equipped with technology to improve accuracy, according to the company.

The Army and Special Operations Command (SOCOM) will test the new guns and then apply the lessons learned to a potential production design. Low-rate initial production could begin as soon as 2011.

It would take several years for the new weapon to replace the "ma duce" in U.S. service. But even if it does so, the M1921/M2 would have been in service for a century.

Its inventor -- John Moses Browning (1855-1926) -- was one of America's most prolific gun inventors. After making his first gun from scrap metal at age 13, he went on to design pistols, rifles, and machine guns. The U.S. Army began using his machine guns in 1890. Browning's innovative weapons also included the .30-caliber M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), used in U.S. Army and Marine Corps squads from World War I through the Korean War. 
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Hmmm, what happened the last time we replaced a weapon invented by John M. Browning? We ended up with the 9mm Beretta. Need I say more?
 
Red 6 said:
Hmmm, what happened the last time we replaced a weapon invented by John M. Browning? We ended up with the 9mm Beretta. Need I say more?

...and we fucked up a perfectly good design (M1919) by converting it to 7.62. Took us around thirty years to get it to work almost as good as the original, then we removed it from service ::)
 
I wouldn't be too quick to toll the death of the M2 50cal.
Some improvements have made the 50 a better gun... quick change barrel being No 1 improvement.
New guns will probably be more finicky, prone to breaking & needing shop time.

Whatever you do.... don't sell off the old M2s.  Put em in "war stock"... where we can get them (again)
 
The weapon intended to replace the M2 .50 HB is called the XM-312. More info can be found here:

http://peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/SW_CSW_XM312.pdf
 
Did you guys see the rate of fire on this new .50 cal? It's 230 rounds a minute.
 
            What ever happened to if it's not broken don't fix it ?
 
karl28 said:
             What ever happened to if it's not broken don't fix it ?

Not sure about the States but since when has that been the Mantra of the CF?
 
Red 6 said:
Did you guys see the rate of fire on this new .50 cal? It's 230 rounds a minute.

The M2 is like the 25mm on the LAV....the resonance of the rate of fire has an effect all of it's own....
 
FWIW, I like the nice steady rate of fire of the 50 cal ;)
Like a kitten that purrs.... VS the C9 firing in "adverse" mode
 
The sheer sound of a .50 calibre M2 HMG has a psychological effect all its own
 
GAP said:
The M2 is like the 25mm on the LAV....the resonance of the rate of fire has an effect all of it's own....

Hey Gap, do you guys have the same rates of fire on your version of the M242? On the Bradley, you can set the gun to single shot, low rate (100 rpm) or high rate (200 rpms). On the Bradley, we typically shoot eight rounds per engagement on the range. You shoot a sensing round, a three-round adjusting burst, and then a four-round burst to finish the engagement. In all the years i was on Bradleys, I never fired  the gun in low rate or single shot mode.

cheers, Mark
 
Red 6 said:
Hey Gap, do you guys have the same rates of fire on your version of the M242? On the Bradley, you can set the gun to single shot, low rate (100 rpm) or high rate (200 rpms). On the Bradley, we typically shoot eight rounds per engagement on the range. You shoot a sensing round, a three-round adjusting burst, and then a four-round burst to finish the engagement. In all the years i was on Bradleys, I never fired  the gun in low rate or single shot mode.

cheers, Mark
Hi Mark.
The rates of fire are identical.  The methods of engagement differ, however.
 
Red 6 said:
Hey Gap, do you guys have the same rates of fire on your version of the M242? On the Bradley, you can set the gun to single shot, low rate (100 rpm) or high rate (200 rpms). On the Bradley, we typically shoot eight rounds per engagement on the range. You shoot a sensing round, a three-round adjusting burst, and then a four-round burst to finish the engagement. In all the years i was on Bradleys, I never fired  the gun in low rate or single shot mode.

cheers, Mark

Our version of the M242 Bushmaster has the same fire rate settings, Single Shot (SS) 100 RPM and 200 RPM.  We engage using 3 round bursts for ammo conservation and to allow the smoke to clear to observe fall of shot.  I believe there are differences in barrel type,  we have a lighter, fluted barrel where as the Bradley has a heavier one, as well as in the drive motor in our cannon has less horsepower, which is supposed to prevent alot of prolonged stoppages.  Besides the 3 round burst, we use the 100 RPM for troop engagements using a "Z" pattern of fire.  I've only used SS for zeroing, and the odd "sniper shot."
 
The single shot used to be used in the estimated range technique, but is no longer.  Now only used in "sniper mode" ;D or when zeroing.
 
All the US .50s I seen in Iraq were all original M2HBs, not the QCBs.

Each time we showed our QCBs, the Yanks were impressed. No more HS&T, and a superquick barrel change, similar to that of a BREN gun or MAG58 FOW.

Either way, I am sure the ole girl will be around in the system for yrs to come, and around the world for another 75 yrs.

On that note at least 80% of our QCBs are WW2 dated US recievers , the remainder a hodge-podge of post war Manroy's, Ramo's, and FNH (FNH's are factory QCBs - the rest Australian conversions upgraded at FTR facilities here).

IMHO the US should convert to QCB, overall less expensive and with an already proven system.
 
Why not just make brand new .50's based on the exact same design, just built brand new?
 
Red 6 said:
Did you guys see the rate of fire on this new .50 cal? It's 230 rounds a minute.

Exactly, how the Hell is it supposed to suppress the enemy when it fires slower than the old Mle. 1915 Chauchat of WW1 Vintage? Hell one could probably hand crank an old Gatling faster

M2HB may be heavy, but that makes it damned near indestructible to the G.I.'s using it.
 
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