Mandatory Minimum Sentances Do not Work

[FastEddy]

zipperhead

"No one lives in tar paper shacks unless they want to, no one dies on the street unless they want to."

You must not fully understand the complexities of life if you really believe that statement of yours.
You really think people want to live in poverty?

You know "Pike" you really throw out some Doozee's. With regard to poverty, since it seems to be one of your priorities, which I presume you have first hand information. Firstly: describe your interpretation of poverty. Secondly: what have you done personally to alleviate it or where or if any.

I'm sure you have been explained that you cannot just throw a statement into the ring and see where it goes, or just leave it there.

Believe me you will get a debate on the subject, maybe not the answers you expected or want to hear or maybe just opinions.
But maybe you just might get a clearer or factual picture of the subject, that you never knew, thought of or thought possible.

I would suggest that this is an opportunity to come in from the cold.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

zipperhead

"No one lives in tar paper shacks unless they want to, no one dies on the street unless they want to."

You must not fully understand the complexities of life if you really believe that statement of yours.
You really think people want to live in poverty?

    Pike, I truly hate to break this to you, but many of the people living and dying on our streets are doing so because of their choices.  There are some street people who are not on drugs, but they are the minority.  The majority are drug users who choose to live on the streets as parasite/predators, willing to live in conditions of squalor and hardship just so they can be free to abuse their bodies and minds with drugs and alcohol.  They would rather be prostitutes, thieves, and panhandlers then make the hard choice to accept help to break their addiction, and rejoin society as productive members.  Many of these people are mentally ill, many have been abused.  This means nothing.  Some of my civilian friends are mentally ill, using medication, therapy, and self discipline they go on to be successful (in some cases, highly successful) workers and business people, good spouses and parents.  Both my sister and myself were abused (details NOYDB), you choose to let that define you, or you choose to rise above it.  I achieved my BSc while serving my country in the Armed Forces, my sister is finishing her BA while serving the community as a volunteer with abused teens.  The excuses given for why these people are on the streets boil down to one thing, bullsh%t.  For every street person waiving their excuse for failure are dozens with the same or better reasons who chose to get off their ass and try.  For those who take the first bad thing to happen to them as a licence to parasitize society for life, either get off your ass and try (with all the support the system has to offer), or do us all a favour and finish your pathetic self destruction quickly and quietly.  The rest of us have work to do.

 

[Brad Sallows]

As Piper has noted, it is incorrect to state that people want to live in poverty or have chosen it.

What many seem to be missing is the ambition to change circumstances.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Ding ding ding!

Mr. Sallows has found the root of the issue. People in poverty are there because of the choices they make, and remain there due to their lack of ambition to succeed. People can bring themselves up if they have the desire too. If they don't, they remain on welfare because it is easier for them to do that then get a job. Such is today's world, no one wants to do any actual WORK to get somewhere, it's all "gimme gimme".

People get into poverty by virtue of the decisions they make or are a part of, they remain there by virture of their ambition (or lack thereof).

I completely agree.  And I would propose the "ambition" part of the equation be that anyone who has been on welfare for over five years will be given an additional five years (pretty generous I think) and unlimited access to education/job training as well as financial planning.  Daycare provided for single parents.  After that, you are cordially invited to live on the street and die in a dumpster. 
My comment about "wanting to live in the street" was more directed at the fact that there are multitudes of shelters and care agencies that help these people.  Around here, the Salvation Army has a huge facility and always has room for more.  The only thing, though, is that you can't come in drunk and you can't act like a jackass while in-house.  And that is far to restrictive for the avant garde rummy dickweed street guy.  We have mens, womens, girls, boys, even pet shelters.  We also have detox/rehab residences for the alcoholics and drug addicts.  It's a pretty easy go. 
Where the system goes to a dump is when we (the employed/educated) think in terms of "I wouldn't want to live like that" and feel bad for these people.  If they didn't want to live "like that" then they would feel bad and DO SOMETHING.  Some university type around here must know what the unemployment rate is, and how it compares to the percentage of people who are unemployable for whatever reason.  People bitch about "there are no jobs".  There are lots of jobs.  You may have to go to them, and they may not pay well, but they exist.  You may have to shack up with a bunch of fellow hard luckers, like the immigrants wisely do, until you are better off, but they are there. 
Welfare provides a comfortable living for people and provides no incentive to get off it. 

Okay, we should maybe talk about the sentencing, or lets set up a Welfare People Suck thread.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

To bring this discussion back on topic, mandatory sentences for other than first offences do work, and are a good idea.  Poverty, addiction, and abuse are not licences to committ crimes, nor should be factors in sentencing in other than first offences.  To say that these factors excuse criminal behaviour, and make unjust imprisonment for the commission of crime, is to suggest all of those who were raised in poverty, have struggled with, or been raised around addiction, and all of those who have been abused are helpless to be anything but criminal.  That is manifestly, demonstrably, and obviously untrue.  The vast majority of Canadians who come from these backgrounds choose not to become criminals.  Many criminals have none of these factors in their history and still chose crime. It is always your choice. Bottom line; do the crime, do the time.  Choose to repeat the crime, then you should do extended time, more so for each repetition.