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Marines to Afghanistan

Journeyman said:
The Pope?   >:D
They've already received their marching orders -- wait for the open source reporting
Pardon? Are you suggesting ISAF/NATO has a policy of attacking a sovereign nation?

The US had made several successful strikes in the past week using Predator's against AQ/Taliban leadership targets in the tribal area of Pakistan, with a wink and a nod from the Pakistani government. This is something we have learned from the Israeli's [ going after the enemy leadership].
 
tomahawk6 said:
The US had made several successful strikes in the past week using Predator's against AQ/Taliban leadership targets in the tribal area of Pakistan, with a wink and a nod from the Pakistani government. This is something we have learned from the Israeli's [ going after the enemy leaedrship].
No winks, no nods, and I don't know what a "tribal area of Pakistan" is. I do know that the US State Dept announced that the border at Baram Chah was "misidentified" in the 1890s, allowing a strike against TB "in Afghanistan."

And while you may wrongly believe this to be a trivial point, it wasn't ISAF (which stands for I Suck At Fighting), it was OEF.

Far from having a "strategy" to attack Taliban bases in Pakistan, I don't believe ISAF has any strategy whatsoever....beyond appeasing the lowest-common denominator amongst the troop-contributing nations - - which so far, has kept them at the stage of attempting to agree on a PowerPoint font. This allows each nation to "fight" as it sees fit, whether cowering behind national caveats, speaking 'hearts & minds' while practicing attrition, or patting oneself on the back for issuing the most speeding tickets on a 16kph camp.
 
Journeyman said:
And while you may wrongly believe this to be a trivial point, it wasn't ISAF (which stands for I Suck At Fighting), it was OEF.
I thought it stood for I Stay At FOBs.  >:D
 
I guess you're right.  ;D

Anyway the US command structure has been folded into ISAF. CFC-A was deactivated. 24 MEU is under the command of MG Lessard as long as they are in the South.
 
tomahawk6: But there's now Combined Joint Task Force - 82:
http://www.cjtf82.com/

Major General David Rodriguez, commander 82nd Airborne Division, is double-hatted as commander of CJTF - 82 (US national command under CENTCOM) and commander of Regional Command East under ISAF.
http://fpc.state.gov/fpc/99614.htm

An interesting press briefing by ISAF commander US Gen. McNeill here;
http://www.centcom.mil/en/article/news/enemy-snipers-aim-foiled-by-friendship/15.html

Anyone know if Gen. McNeill, or his successor in command of ISAF, US Gen. David D. McKiernan,
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/01/us-to-keep-command-of-isaf.html
has a direct command subordination to CENTCOM as well as to  SHAPE?
http://www.nato.int/isaf/structure/comstruc/index.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
The relationship between General McNeill and CENTCOM is the same as that of General Petraeus to CENTCOM and a bit different.Through ISAF McNeill is responsible to SACEUR but he also is supported by CENTCOM.The CAS is supplied by USAF assets "owned" by CENTCOM. The command structure reminds me more about how we are organized in Korea.

US forces are in Korea under UN auspices just as ISAF is.UNC/CFC reports directly to Washington but also interacts with PACOM. In the event of war PACOM would support UNC with the Commander UNC as the operational commander.

The US command for Afghanistan was CFC-A which was folded into ISAF in Nov 06. There are US Army task organizations that report to ISAF. As noted TF 82 commands two Army brigades plus the PRT's in the Regional Command East AO.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Anyway the US command structure has been folded into ISAF.
I hate to nag about this; I really do. But you don't have a clue what you're talking about here.


According to a very credible National Post story, your General McNeill doesn't seem to think OEF [ie, part of the "US command structure"] has been abolished and "folded into ISAF." 
Gen. McNeill said....Two thousand of them [USMC] (will be) under the NATO flag [ie - ISAF], and 1,200 under the OEF (the U.S.-led Operation Enduring Freedom) flag.
I'll be sure and pass word to the guys busily cutting off their OEF patches to stop -- it was merely stateside rumour-mongering by someone out of his lane.


Please stop posting crap you obviously know nothing about. Please
 
Anyway the US command structure has been folded into ISAF.

I stand by that statement. This is why. McNeill is the theater commander.The CFC-A command doesnt exist as far as I can tell. McNeill reports through NATO command channels but he also interacts with CENTCOM because Afghanistan is still part of their command area.

Gen. McNeill said....Two thousand of them [USMC] (will be) under the NATO flag [ie - ISAF], and 1,200 under the OEF (the U.S.-led Operation Enduring Freedom) flag.
I'll be sure and pass word to the guys busily cutting off their OEF patches to stop -- it was merely stateside rumour-mongering by someone out of his lane.

My post was in regard to 24 MEU which IS part of iSAF. I made no comment at all about 2/7 Marines who as has been pointed out will be training the ANA which is part of Combined Security Transition Command - Afghanistan.

 
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/B1EAB48AC25626A88525741200361E37?opendocument

KC-130s deliver for NATO-ISAF
Submitted by:  24th MEU
Story by:  Computed Name: Cpl. Randall A. Clinton
Story Identification #:  20083204516





KANDAHAR PROVINCE, Afghanistan(Mar. 20, 2008) -- Somewhere over Afghanistan, Capt. Rick Sofge’s heart jumped a beat; his accompanying crew’s eyes fixed on a small paved landing strip appearing around the corner from a sprawling mountain chain.

“We train for it, you expect it, you know it is going to look small, it is going to look weird, and you are going to go “whew,” said Sofge, KC-130 Hercules aircraft commander, Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 365 (reinforced), 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit, NATO International Security Assistance Force.

Part thrill ride, part freight train, the Marine airplane banks and descends to the patch of paved desert. There is no stopping now; seconds before wheels touch the dusty ground a slight pull on the controls and the plane soars safely into the clouds.

This was only a test of the crew’s ability to adapt to new landscape.

“The terrain is a gigantic issue when you are landing at a higher altitude, which changes the performance of our airplanes,” said Sofge.

Each of these flights is another chance to try a new airfield or talk to a different nation’s radio operator. While all countries share the same basic rules of the sky, each nation may have different expectations of the arriving pilots, crew and cargo, said Maj. Scott Madziarczyk, chief intratheater airlift system, Joint Transportation System, NATO-ISAF.

“When you get on the ground and move cargo, different nations are able to do different things due to national caveats,” he said.

Fitting in among the multinational force has other benefits for the KC-130 crew, a chance to do things peers in Iraq only dream about.

“I think we would all like to do everything our platform is capable of. In Iraq we have become more segregated into certain teams and what we do. Here we have the chance to take a KC-130 and do everything it was built to do, so I hope we get that chance while we are here,” he said.

For him that means, helicopter and fixed wing refueling, resupply drops, and landing on less-than perfect landing strips (short, dirty or at high elevation.)


The KC-130 detachment has worked non-stop since arriving in country, combining training missions with much-needed cargo runs for ISAF.

“If you can name it and fit it into a C-130, they have been flying it around,” said Maj. Madziarczyk. “Over the last 7 days they have been averaging 100 to 170 passengers a day, and 6 to 7,000 kg of cargo.”

“We are doing a sortie per hour, where over in Iraq we would do a sortie and it might last four hours. Big difference, we are doing a lot of hop skipping and jumping. From here to here to here to here, so it’s pretty busy,” explained Sofge.

This particular flight included stops at airfields around the country; a load of cargo here, a group of soldiers there. Typical of their flights in country, they span the region making frequent stops. Due to the required work for each flight, and each landing, the bus-stop like flight schedule translates into a more hectic work schedule for the crews.

“Every leg is more planning, so if you put on four little half hour legs, it’s a whole lot more planning,” he said. “You have to know how you are going to get in, how you are getting out, all while keeping terrain in mind.”

Lost in the talk of terrain and altitudes is the notion that these planes are flying and landing in combat zones. They can’t control whether the enemy will fire at them, so they turn their attention to the things they can control.

“There is a point at which you transition, and I don’t really consider it anymore. I stopped having to think about a guy shooting me, because if I don’t flare I’m going to go into the ground and the wings are going to snap off and we are not going anywhere… if we live,” Sofge explained.

The callous yet reasoned approach of Sofge is on par with his crew, they understand the dangers of their job, but are not restricted by them.

“When you fly into a hostile environment there is a chance you will get shot at,” said Sgt. Alexander Kientz, KC-130 loadmaster, HMM-365 (Rein.), 24th MEU, ISAF, who wears Aircrew Combat Wings, a symbol of his time flying in combat zones.

With over a thousand hours of flight time, including two tours in Iraq, Kientz sees the missions around Afghanistan as a way to get familiar with the area before the 24th MEU begins full-spectrum operations.

“We are just here in support of the MEU, and whatever they need us to do we are comfortable with. We don’t really want to say no to anyone. We want to be as helpful as possible to the MEU or ISAF. If someone needs us to go here and pick something up, then it's just like ‘We’re on it,’” he explained.

That attitude from the squadron is music to Madziarczyk’s ear.

“The day before they called me, I was walking around wishing I had another aircraft,” he explained. “They moved gear for darn near every nation that is here with ISAF. (Every ISAF country has) had someone or something fly around on KC-130s over the last seven days,” he said. “(Now) I’ve got customers asking to fly with them.”
 
A letter of mine in the Globe and Mail (full text subscriber only):
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080325.LETTERS25-5//TPStory/Comment

Feeding the NDP

MARK COLLINS


March 25, 2008

Ottawa -- In your article Tories Knew 1,000 French Troops Were Pledged Before Manley Recommended Them, MP Asserts (front page, March 24),
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/freeheadlines/LAC/20080324/AFGHANCANADA24/national/National
NDP defence critic Dawn Black says "there is no way of knowing yet whether the American troops sent to Kandahar will work under NATO command or remain part of the U.S. Operation Enduring Freedom." Well, yes, there is a way.

According to an Agence France-Presse story on March 18, the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit - the soldiers who have been arriving in Kandahar - will "work under the command of the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force." And Marine Corps News reported on March 15 that "this deployment is in support and under the command of NATO's [ISAF]." Does that help?

The last sentence is the Globe's; this is what I wrote:

But I guess the NDP's defence spokeswoman doesn't bother to follow the media on her subject. After all, facts are irrelevant to NDP positions.

A Norman's Spectator LETTER OF THE DAY.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/nspector4/LETT.htm

I should have called the Marines "troops", not "soldiers". Sorry about that.

These were my references:
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j_OQliDILY2WjV06CzfFZHstrZrA
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/main5/E9C34438231157B58525740D0020CA8F?opendocument
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/2008/03/17/5031611-cp.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
I should have called the Marines "troops", not "soldiers". Sorry about that.

As an aside, you are quite correct in that they are not soldiers.  And they are quite aware of that fact.  In my own experience, in Haiti, I referred to one of our Marines as a soldier.  He simply said "Sir, I'm not a soldier: I'm a Marine".  Being pedantic, I went to the source of Language Excellence (Concise Oxford), and found the definition of "Soldier" meaning "A member of an army" (or words to that effect).  For "Marine", it said that meant "a member of a marine force, eg: Royal Marines, USMC, etc".  So, I went back to said Marine, apologised, and asked him not to hate me for being "only" a soldier! :D

As for Dawn Black, I believe that the USMC troops, although for ISAF (the MEU part, anyway), are a one time thing, and NOT part of Manley's Final Solution on Afghanistan.
 
Mortarman Rockpainter: Very good point about Dawn Black's statement :-[.  I completely missed that angle--though I still think Ms Black is blowing smoke.  I've put the letter up at a couple of other places and wonder if anyone else will make your observation.

Mark
Ottawa
 
US marines say they have begun operations in Afghanistan
Article Link

KABUL (AFP) — More than 2,000 US marines recently deployed in Afghanistan to support a NATO-led military campaign against Islamic rebels have began operations in the country's restive south, the unit said Thursday.

The 2,300-strong US Marine Expeditionary Unit was part of Washington's recent contribution to the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) efforts to quell a resurgent Taliban insurgency.

"The last of the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit's Marines and Sailors are arriving and the unit is beginning operations after weeks of flowing personnel and equipment here," the unit said in a statement.

"The Marines have begun their operations in (southern Afghanistan) in support of and with their Afghanistan international partners," it said, referring to ISAF forces deployed there.

Southern Afghanistan sees much of an ongoing insurgency being waged by remnants of the Taliban, which was toppled from government in a US-led invasion in late 2001.

The insurgency, which includes suicide bombings and is said to be supported by Al-Qaeda terror network, has increased especially in the country's south and east in the past two years.
More on link
 
Permanent or not, I for one sure am glad they are there.  Wished they were 3 months ago when I was. 
 
I wonder how real their subordination to Maj.-Gen. Lessard as commander RC South is:

U.S. marines in Kandahar will follow same rules as Canadians: Hillier
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/04/10/hillier.html

U.S. marines heading for southern Afghanistan to bolster battle-hardened Canadian troops will operate under the same NATO command and rules of engagement as their Canadian counterparts, Canada's chief of defence staff told MPs on Thursday.

Gen. Rick Hillier made the comments as he appeared in Ottawa before the Commons foreign affairs committee hearing on the Afghanistan mission. He was responding to questions from New Democrat Paul Dewar on whether the marines would "dance to their own drummer" in Kandahar province.

"When you look at the marines and how they operate in the field, many would suggest that it's very different than what we do," Dewar said. "They usually don't take commands from other countries."

Dewar, whose party has opposed the extension of Canada's mission in Afghanistan, also expressed concern that the U.S. forces would rely more on air strikes than Canadian troops would and potentially cause greater civilian casualties.

But Hillier disagreed with the assessment of the marines' tactics, saying they are fully aware that any civilian casualties caused by NATO forces undermine support for the mission among Afghans and give fuel to Taliban recruiting efforts.

"We know what the winning conditions must be," Hillier responded. "They're professional soldiers. We know that from our perspective."..

Liberal foreign affairs critic Bob Rae asked the general whether the marines would operate under the same "philosophy" as Canadian forces in Kandahar.

"They are coming in to work for the ISAF mission, which means they work under the NATO rules of engagement," Hillier replied [emphasis added]...

Hillier's appearance comes amid rumours among the rank-and-file that the highly popular Newfoundlander is contemplating retirement.

The speculation grew after Hillier's wife accompanied him on a visit to Afghanistan last month, while his speech to the Canadian Defence Association in February was widely viewed as a farewell address.

But Hillier was not asked and did not speak of his future plans during his appearance Thursday before the committee.

Mark
Ottawa
 
The COD FATHER  a man after my own heart!

Well said!
 
Here's the 24th MEU's press release:

Marines begin operations in Afghanistan
http://www.iimefpublic.usmc.mil/public/infolineMarines.nsf/%28ArticlesRead%29/B11CE3610025219B85257427002B558F

KABUL, Afghanistan (APR 9) – The last of the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit’s  Marines and Sailors are arriving and the unit is beginning operations after weeks of flowing personnel and equipment here.

The 2,300-strong unit is conducting operations in support of NATO’s International Security Assistance Force. The MEU will be employed as a Theater Tactical Force, a position which allows the commander of ISAF [emphasis added--no mention of Maj.-Gen. Lessard and RC South] to rapidly deploy the MEU wherever it’s needed to conduct full-spectrum operations from humanitarian assistance missions to combat operations.

Yesterday the ISAF-Marines conducted two successful missions in two different provinces. 

First, Marine AV-8B Harrier jet fighters provided close air support to ISAF’s Task Force Zabul troops during an engagement with insurgents in the area.

Later in the day, infantry Marines joined other ISAF Forces in conducting patrols around Kandahar.

                                -30-

For information, please contact:
Capt Kelly Frushour
Public Affairs Officer
24th Marine Expeditionary Unit (24 MEU)
Phone number: (country code 93) 079-635-5259

There's lots of material at the official website,
http://www.iimefpublic.usmc.mil/public/iimefpublic.nsf/UnitSites/24thmeu

including this slide show with text:

Outside the comfort zone: 24th MEU leaves the wire for the first time
http://24thmeu.wordpress.com/

Mark
Ottawa



 
This is pretty revealing about the command situation with the Marines:

Marines immobile in Afghan red tape
Multinational force has multiple leaders
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-te.afghan11apr11,0,925607.story

KANDAHAR PROVINCE, Afghanistan - Disagreements and coordination problems high within the international military command are delaying combat operations for 2,500 Marines who arrived here last month to help root out Taliban forces, according to military officers here.

For weeks the Marines -- with their light armor, infantry, artillery and a squadron of transport and attack helicopters and Harrier strike fighters -- have been virtually quarantined at the international air base here, unable to operate beyond the base perimeter.

Within immediate striking distance are radical Islamist Taliban forces that are entrenched around major towns in southern Afghanistan, where they control the lucrative narcotics trade and are consolidating their position as an alternative to the U.S.-backed government of President Hamid Karzai.

But disputes among the many layers of international command here -- an ungainly conglomeration of 40 nations ranging from Albania and Iceland to the U.S. and Britain -- have forced a series of delays.

Unlike most U.S. military operations, even the small details of operations here -- such as the radio frequency used to evacuate a soldier for medical care -- must first be coordinated with multiple military commands.

Then, there have been larger disputes over strategy. Some commanders here want more emphasis on civic action in conjunction with local Afghans. Others believe security must take precedence.

For Marines, who are accustomed to landing in a war zone and immediately going into action with their own plans, the holdup has been frustrating.

Frequent changes among command leaders and unclear lines of authority have made it difficult for the Marines to win general approval for the timing, goals and extent of proposed operations.

Marine operations planning, which is routinely completed in hours or days, has gone on for weeks while they await agreement and approval from above.

"They invite us here ... and they don't know how to use us?" said Lt. Col. Anthony Henderson, commander of the 1st Battalion, 6th Marines. "We are trying to keep our frustration in check ... but we have to wait for the elephants to stop dancing," Henderson said, referring to the brass-heavy international command [emphasis added]...

These coalition military forces are assembled under the banner of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), commanded by U.S. Army Gen. Dan K. McNeill, headquartered in Kabul with an international staff.

Beneath McNeill are five regional commands and numerous national military commands. Henderson's Marine battalion and its parent task force, the 24th MEU, officially are under the command of ISAF and McNeill [emphasis added]. But they are assigned to work in conjunction with the regional command here and other coalition forces.

Coordination on long-term strategy is complex, staff officers here said, because the commanders and staffs at each level regularly rotate. Regional command south here, for instance, changes every nine months between British, Canadian and Dutch officers...

The regional command here, RC-South, declined to comment on any command issues. In Kabul, Brig. Gen. Carlos Branco, a senior spokesman for the ISAF, said the Marines "answer to" ISAF but are under the "tactical control" of RC-South [emphasis added]. He said ISAF was satisfied that this is the best arrangement to "coordinate and synchronize" combat operations.

In case of a disagreement, McNeill would make the final decision [emphasis added], said Branco, a Portuguese officer.

The problems are magnified when Afghan government officials at the national and provincial level weigh in with their own judgments. The result, some say, is that the counterinsurgency campaign, which is inherently difficult enough, suffers from the lack of a clear vision and strategy...

...the 2,500 Marines here train, clean their weapons yet again, take long conditioning runs along the dust-choked perimeter roads, and wonder when they're going to begin what they came for.

"This is killing us," says a staff sergeant. "There's only so much training you can do, especially considering that most of my Marines just got back from Iraq."..

Mark
Ottawa
 
Let's not forget that the Media will publish what they want to publish.

In the past, I have seen American MsM take a stand that is very much against having US troops under non-US command.

So the reporter may have been hunting for sour grapes
 
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